Stress to Success: Practical Nutrition and Stress Management advice for Busy Professionals

“Your health is the only thing that’s keeping you there, doing your job. … Your body might not give you that choice. … You keep running at such a pace and we keep expecting our body to just sustain us, which it does, to a point, but at some point it might decide that’s enough and it forces you to stop.”
Cailie Ford

Cailie Ford, a clinical nutritionist with a background in change management, has channelled her passion for food and health into a thriving practice.

Cailie understands the profound impact that a relentless corporate culture can have on women, particularly regarding gut health and sustainable fat loss. She reveals how simple adjustments to your daily routine can significantly enhance your resilience to stress, establish healthy boundaries, and prevent serious health issues. From debunking popular diet trends like intermittent fasting to highlighting the crucial role of a balanced breakfast, Cailie provides practical, actionable advice for women managing demanding careers while prioritising their health without additional stress. She delves into the challenges of corporate environments, where unhealthy eating habits and stress often become ingrained. By addressing issues like grabbing quick, less nutritious meals and persistent fatigue, Cailie uncovers their long-term effects on health and offers strategies for setting boundaries and creating a healthier work-life balance to combat these stressors and improve overall well-being.

Don’t let the demands of work jeopardise your health. Tune in to this episode and discover how to nourish your body and mind, so you can thrive both at work and in life.

In this episode you’ll hear about

• Cailie’s journey from change management to nutrition.
• Key areas Cailie targets in her wellness programmes.
• Bad habits in corporate environments and how to address them.
• Strategies for managing stress through nutrition and lifestyle changes.
• Easy adjustments for improving nutrition, including managing stress.
• Balanced breakfasts and intermittent fasting for women.
• Hydration Tips.
• Balancing weight loss goals with a busy work life.
• Physical activity in sedentary jobs.
• Mindful eating and simplifying nutrition.

Key links
Cailie Ford website
Cailie Ford LinkedIn
Cailie Ford Instagram

About our guest

Cailie is a motivational speaker, clinical nutritionist and accredited change manager. Cailie works with businesses and across the globe, providing customised workshops and programs to support employees to feel better and achieve more.

Workshops and programs focus on the relationship between physical and mental wellbeing and their impact on business performance, working towards a healthier, happier and more engaged workforce.

Cailie also runs a busy private practice, specialising in gut health, hormones, sustainable fat loss and women’s health across the lifespan. Cailie’s success with clients is underpinned by deep clinical knowledge and her lived experience with the ‘juggle’. As a busy mum to 3 boisterous boys under 8, Cailie is a passionate advocate for helping busy parents take time for themselves to show up better in their personal and professional lives and avoid burnout. Cailie’s clients love that her advice is practical, achievable and doesn’t overwhelm.

About our host

Our host, Chris Hudson, is a Teacher, Experience Designer and Founder of business transformation coaching and consultancy Company Road.

Company Road was founded by Chris Hudson, who saw over-niching and specialisation within corporates as a significant barrier to change.

Chris considers himself incredibly fortunate to have worked with some of the world’s most ambitious and successful companies, including Google, Mercedes-Benz, Accenture (Fjord) and Dulux, to name a small few. He continues to teach with University of Melbourne in Innovation, and Academy Xi in CX, Product Management, Design Thinking and Service Design and mentors many business leaders internationally.

Transcript

Chris Hudson: 0:07
Hey folks, buckle up. We’re about to miss the Voice on TV, but that doesn’t matter so much because we’re about to embark on a journey that’s going to take us from the depths of your gut to the heights of corporate success. Or maybe it’s not a sci fi adventure. It’s company road podcast. And today we’re going to be diving into the fascinating world where nutrition in itself is going to be discussed, but also in terms of how it meets business performance and the things that we can do in that area. So who’s going to guide us? None other than Cailie. Cailie, massive warm welcome to the show.

Cailie Ford: 0:33
Thank you so much for having me, Chris.

Chris Hudson: 0:35
Thanks. And yeah, I mean, imagine like for the listeners out there, imagine a person who can decode some of these mysteries of the digestive system. In the morning, you’re thinking about company’s workforce by lunch, and you’re still doing things in the evening with your three kids by dinnertime. So you’re kind of doing everything yourself, which is amazing. And you’re a rare breed. So a clinical nutritionist. change management, uh, which was your prior occupation and a flair for kind of motivating people to think more about probably what they eat and how they live. And you’re not just talking the talk, you’re walking the walk. So you’re running a thriving private practice and you’re doing global business workshops and lots, lots of stuff going on in the house. No doubt. We’ll get into some of the interesting stuff. We’ll talk about the food on the plate, the secret ingredients, some of the things, but, but other things probably mixed in with business as well. And yeah, it’s going to be an interesting chat. So I want to dig into some of the juicy stuff and maybe we just start with an opening question, Cailie, which was around your transition because once upon a time you were in change management, now you’re obviously running your own business in the world of nutrition, but tell us about those steps and what led you to leave the wonderful world of change management.

Cailie Ford: 1:37
Well, I’ll start off by saying that the two careers, although they do seem at odds, are actually not that different. And I came to learn this during my time back at uni to study nutrition and dietetics. So working in corporate change management for over, 10 years, so 15 years in corporate in total. And my change career was heavily focused on behavioural change and capability uplift at an organisational level. And what I really felt passionate about is helping people shift through the stages of change and helping them remove barriers to make sure that the changes were sustainable. And then meanwhile, on a personal note, was always a foodie and was known As a bit of a health nut around the office, always bringing healthy baked goods for everyone. And knowing that I want to sort of take this a bit further and then just on a whim decided that I would go back to uni and do this degree. And so straddled full time corporate career while studying by night and by day and then started having babies along the way and it all got a little bit jumbled for a little while but now happily working full time in nutrition running my own business and doing all the juggle that comes with that.

Chris Hudson: 2:54
Yeah wow amazing journey and yeah congrats for doing that transition it’s a really hard one it’s always more tempting to kind of stick with what you know sometimes you can underestimate the effort that you have to put in to do that so massive congrats. Just reflecting as you were talking, I think, you know, some of the things that we think about in nutrition, the role that it plays in our lives, but I suppose, tell us maybe about some of the work that you do and who you’re helping at the minute.

Cailie Ford: 3:18
I do a real mix, so two key pillars of my business, I work with corporate, so that’s where my change management skills are really helpful in terms of background and facilitation and training because I deliver well being workshops and programs into corporates on a range of health topics, so everything from sleep, gut health, mental health, women’s hormone health. How to increase personal and business performance through nutrition and building your resilience to stress through nutrition and drawing on my lived experience in corporate and working in the high pressure world of projects. It’s something that I’m so familiar with the need to nourish yourself well in order to be able to perform at your best. So that’s kind of one pillar of my business. And then the other is my private practice where I work with people one on one so I special in gut health and hormones, sustainable fat loss, and also women’s health across the lifespan. And the two worlds, the corporate stuff and the private practice cross over a lot because the typical profile of my private practice clients are busy professionals, white collar people who are lost their way, maybe along the way that they’re highly educated, but they’re time poor, busy, and just are looking for Quick, efficient ways to build health back into their already busy lifestyles without overwhelming. And again, that’s where I really shine because I’m a busy parent and running my own business. And so I share all of these, not only my clinical experience tips, but my lived experience as someone who does the juggle every day.

Chris Hudson: 5:08
It’s a lot to juggle. So yeah, I don’t know how you do it, but maybe we’ll get into that. So I want to start with maybe a question around the world of work, the corporate side of things, and when you walk in, or maybe when you were in that role in change management, what were some of the things that you were seeing that were kind of systemic or, you know, what were you noticing about kind of the bad habits that were around with regards to nutrition?

Cailie Ford: 5:30
I think first and foremost, the glorifying of busy being busy, but I had a dollar for every time in the lift when I was working corporate and you’d see people going, How are you? And that first answer would be busy. Flat out. Crazy busy. And it was this kind of accepted model where health and being busy were mutually exclusive concepts and very few people were getting that balance right. And I’ve seen people collapse on the job, have mini heart attacks because they were working so hard. You know, people have got chronic sleep issues, stress through the roof, blood pressure issues. And this was me observing all of this stuff before I even became a clinical nutritionist. And reflecting on it now, I think. Gosh, that is just so, so dangerous to be living that way because ultimately your health is the only thing that’s keeping you there doing your job. And then years later, working with clients, chief executives, and people with disabilities. Busy jobs and doing the juggle and one client comes to mind where through talking to her I could Really see that she was coasting very close to complete burnout. She was solo mom very busy job And I said to her What’s it going to take? I really think that you need to take a break of some sort, whether it’s a long weekend or a week, just to kind of reset and take a step back. And she said to me, I know what you’re saying, and I know what I need to do because she had developed auto immunity conditions because of stress. She had chronic illness issues that were widespread, lots of symptomatic things that were, you Really impeding on her quality of life, but in the same breath, she said to me, I just don’t have time to stop right now. I need to get to the end of this project in a few months, and then I’ll think about stopping. And it’s always sat with me because I think that your body might not give you that choice. You keep running at such a pace and we keep expecting our body to just sustain us, which it does to a point, but at some point it might decide that that’s enough and it forces you to stop. And I speak from personal experience with this, because I have been through burnout.

Chris Hudson: 8:01
Yeah, it’s hard to say to somebody who hasn’t maybe experienced it yet, that that could happen in a way that would make them sit up and pay attention in that moment. Because you’re right, there’s always something in the way. You’re going to have to deliver that project, you’re going to have to run like a lunatic for another three weeks, four weeks, until that’s done. You’ll worry about your health. I’m just thinking, I mean, the world of work doesn’t seem to be that well designed for us. If that’s what’s happening.

Cailie Ford: 8:25
I think it’s about creating boundaries and disruptors so that you’re managing your levels of stress. Because I can’t take away the stresses that are thrown at my clients, what I can do is give them practical tools that they can use that just help them be more resilient to that stress so that you are able to handle it a bit more.

Chris Hudson: 8:50
Ah, yeah, okay. So you can buy yourself some time maybe in that

Cailie Ford: 8:52
moment. You can. You absolutely, absolutely can.

Chris Hudson: 8:57
So what are some secrets here? What can we go into?

Cailie Ford: 9:00
So the secret, the biggest one, and this is a pitfall for so many people, and it was such a simple thing, eating breakfast. It sounds simple and people can think, Oh, sure. We know this, but we’ve all got this cortisol awakening response, which is a natural thing in the morning that helps us switch out of sleep mode into awake mode. Great. And the relationship between cortisol and food is that food helps to blunt that cortisol response. So it just alleviates the kind of sharpness of it. But if you take food out of that equation and add in, let’s say, coffee, which so many clients say to me when I ask, what is your breakfast? And they say, coffee. That’s not a meal. So then you’ve got the caffeine, which is helping spike cortisol. And if you’re not then eating for hours later. You’ve just got cortisol on the rise, and so you Scientifically, you are not as resilient to stress as if you were to introduce food. And I see it time and time again, like magic with my one on one clients who come to me and they’re stressed out of their mind, they’re tired but wired of an evening yelling at people around them, the hair trigger of emotion. And we introduce a protein and fibre rich breakfast. So not just any breakfast, cereal. Great source of carbohydrates, but that’s not going to cut it in terms of sustained energy. So a really balanced, nutritious breakfast. And they come back to me a couple of weeks later and go, I can’t believe this. I feel so much calmer. I switch my coffee to later in the morning. I’m not suffering with the 3 p. m. slump as much. It’s incredible. So that would be the first thing. The simplest thing that you can do for yourself, for stress management, for making yourself more resilient long term is introducing a balanced breakfast.

Chris Hudson: 11:00
Yeah, amazing. So the one that has all the ingredients in the ideal breakfast. How are you describing that?

Cailie Ford: 11:07
Yeah, so it’s a mix and part of what I do. I work with people to understand. What is your life look like? What is the day in the life? Are you running around? Are you out the door within 30 minutes of waking up? Are you running around up to kids so that then I can build in the breakfast that suits that person? It could be as simple as I’m a huge fan of a Whole Foods smoothie that has got a protein element in there. Protein powder is a really efficient, effective way to get a full serve of protein in, but then we’re adding in Whole Foods. Like fruit and some nice veggies that go well in smoothies are things like cucumbers, zucchini, um, cauliflower, classic, and just really neutral flavouring veggies so that you can get a quick win with getting some fibre and some veggies in because no one is eating veggies, but then also some little nutrient powerhouses. Like seeds, flax seeds, shea seeds, hemp seeds, all really rich in nutrients that our hormones need to regulate for our immune system to be well and to feed our good gut bugs. Smoothie, what could be quicker? Blitzing that up, wonderful. I’m also a big fan of, uh, batch making things. So like baked oats, for example, would be lovely because again, you can grate in things like carrots, zucchini, but also add in some lovely fruits and berries, get a whole bunch of eggs in there, milk, and then bake it, batch cook it and freeze it in portion sizes to use later on. That would be a great start. Too many people, I know women are especially guilty of this. of having one egg on toast for breakfast. So, if we think about a rule of thumb, because everyone hears that eggs are a great source of protein, which they are, and they’re also rich in other nutrients, but a good rule of thumb for main meals is that we want to aim for around 25 to 30 grams of protein at each meal. One egg has 6 grams of protein. So it’s just not enough. And one piece of toast might have four grams of protein. So if you think about playing a numbers game with it, all of a sudden you’re trying to play catch up for the rest of the day. So we’re thinking about more like three eggs on toast on like a high protein toast for breakfast, that would be a really lovely start. And if you can grate in. Some veggies into a scrambled egg. That would be delightful too. Another concept that’s a bit divisive is dinner for breakfast. Not everyone’s on board with this, but I always suggest it because having animal meat or it could be tofu or something like that, if you’re a vegetarian or vegan. But thinking about, there’s no reason that you couldn’t have a steak or a chicken breast or something for breakfast. There’s no rules around that. We’ve just created these rules that you’ve got to have like cereal or muesli for breakfast. But that’s a really quick and easy way to get a great hit of protein and then combining it with some veggies or fruit and then you’re getting the fibre element as well.

Chris Hudson: 14:13
Very good. All right. Does that mean you get breakfast for dinner or just that you get another dinner later? Sure, it absolutely

Cailie Ford: 14:18
does. How delightful. You could have a big yoga bowl and fruit for, um, for dinner.

Chris Hudson: 14:22
I mean, it feels like it’s very easy in a way. A lot of people have been either going without breakfast or like you say, switching in coffees and maybe it’s two coffees or three coffees. And that’s the decision around the variety that have your breakfast. There’s talk about other things like intermittent fasting. Some of these things. Themes are coming up. How late in the day can you basically leave it before you start eating? I mean, all of this is kind of feels like it’s not aligning with what you’re saying.

Cailie Ford: 14:45
No secret about that. And I always have in any of the corporate workshops that I run, there’s always someone in the audience who does intermittent fasting and says it works for them. And if you feel okay, fine, who am I to tell you otherwise, other than being someone who leans heavily on the science, somewhat the science. It tells us that particularly for women, premenopausal women, is that our hormones don’t do so well on it. So a lot of people use it as a weight management strategy because essentially what it’s doing is restricting your calorie intake. There’s nothing magical about it. About intermittent fasting for weight management. It’s just another vehicle on the same highway, aiming to get you to the same destination, which is generally weight loss, but it’s not the only vehicle. And what we know is that yes, it might equal weight loss, but it’s not helpful for your hormones. And again, I have so many clients that come to me and are feeling stressed or feeling anxious. They’re only having the coffee in the morning because they’re fasting until midday and it’s not until I start. sharing what the evidence says and they think, ah, okay, I didn’t real I could be feeling better than this. I just thought that stressed was my modus operandi. And once we introduce food in the morning, then it’s a complete transformation. So I’m a firm believer in flooding your body with nutrients in the morning, not starving it. And then feeding your body at regular predictable intervals throughout the day. Because if we think about. What are our hormones made of, our neurotransmitters, it’s all of the, all those bodily functions require nutrients and substrates, and where do we get those from? From the foods that we eat, and so why would we starve ourselves on these really beautiful nutrients that we need so much? For stress management and hormone regulation for clarity of mind, creativity, quality of sleep, the list is endless.

Chris Hudson: 16:51
So that was intermittent fasting. What else can we myth bust? What about water? How’s that featuring?

Cailie Ford: 16:57
And that’s another thing, not enough people, uh, drinking water. So water is, it’s a bit like walking. It’s so underrated in terms of. Where it fits into the health puzzle because we need water to transport nutrients around the body. We need it to lubricate our joints. We need it for to help our kidneys and our liver detoxify things from our body. And so. If you’re drinking one litre of water a day, it’s simply not enough, and even mild dehydration has been shown to impair cognitive function, concentration, mood, it affects our hunger levels negatively, so we really want to be aiming for a I would minimum 1. 5 litres, but more healthily around that two litre mark would be a great start more. Obviously if you’re exercising or in hot weather also, because a lot of my clients have fat loss as one of their goals, we need water. to support the biochemical reaction of fat breakdown. So if that’s not enough of a motivator for people that it can actually help them lose weight, increasing hydration does that.

Chris Hudson: 18:12
I think that’s really important to point out. It seems obvious again, but a lot of water coolers and jars, jugs of water in meetings and the drink bottles are coming in and out. And obviously Frank Green have had something to say about people carry it around now too. So there’s a more fashionable way to carry it, right. Which is good. And. I

Cailie Ford: 18:30
think finding different strategies, because a lot of people say, Oh, just, I don’t get excited about water. I get that. So how can you make it more appealing? So whether it’s buying a soda stream for home, if you added a dash of fruit juice to it or something to make it more palatable, so be it. The end result is that you’re drinking a more water. Herbal teas are great because they contribute to hydration. People often don’t think about that. But you can enjoy herbal teas cold or warm. It’s great in colder climates because I know a lot of people don’t like to drink as much cold water when it’s cold weather. So herbal teas, all the options now that are sugar free options like kombucha and the soda leaves and things like that, just great to intersperse in between your actual tap or filtered water, anything to increase the hydration.

Chris Hudson: 19:23
And weight loss. I mean, we talked a bit about work. It’s hard to mix in, I suppose, the needs of the daily grind with what people are actually aiming for. For and what their goals are in terms of could be better sleep, could be weight loss, could be this, could be that. But how are you setting people up in a way that can make all of that work together, do you think? Because weight loss, like in particularly if you’re in an office job or if you’re at a desk, you know, it can be a very hard thing to manage.

Cailie Ford: 19:46
Yeah, it absolutely can. So there’s kind of two sides to that coin. If it’s purely for weight loss, the good news, you don’t actually need to move your body contrary to practice. popular belief, in order to lose weight, all you need to do is put yourself into a calorie deficit so that you’re consuming less calories than what your body requires each day. But the benefits of exercise are far and wide. It’s going to improve your mood. It’s going to increase your muscle mass, which is so important as we age in terms of being an anti aging mechanism. It’s just going to make you feel better because we release those endorphins and then that kind of healthy habit, breathe more healthy habits, and then you stay on track with healthier choices for yourself. So, because a lot of my clients have hybrid roles now where they’re in the office some days or at home others key focal point of any work that I do with someone is focusing on their sleep because if you’re not sleeping well, that is kind of the cornerstone to the rest of your well being. How could you possibly wake up? Motivated and ready to exercise or ready to do positive things for your health. If you’re going to bed at midnight, 1am, waking up at 3am because you’re stressed, all of those things just have a negative knock on effect. So finding strategies to improve people’s chances of quality and quantity of sleep. And then working with people on an individual basis to find, okay, what opportunities are there in your day? To increase incidental exercise, so it could be, you know, if you’re automatically taking the lift to go one, two, three flights, instead, take the stairs because it would most likely be quicker anyway, and I’ve done this research in an organisation where I was in change management, the ability to get from A to B and using the stairs is a lot faster than waiting for the lift. Also, finding opportunities to move your body with colleagues. So, walk and talk meetings, going out for lunch, getting out in the sunshine. Just those little opportunities. It’s just occurred to me, one of the conversations with a client about a year ago when we were looking at For helping her build in healthy habits and she was, she’s living in Sydney and she would take the train from her home, which was nearish to the city into her workplace. And I did a quick look on Google Maps and realised that if she walked instead of catching the train, it would only increase her travel time by seven minutes. And so that was a no brainer. And she’d never thought about it. Thought about it before it was just a given that she would jump on the train. And so seven minutes was a feasible and normal choice to make so that she was looking after her health and also creating that disruptor. So that was a lovely win. Other things like getting off the bus stop earlier or getting off the train or stop earlier, the incidental exercise should not. Be underestimated throughout the working day, even if you are nine to five in an office, there are opportunities. It’s just about looking for them and not underestimating them because some movement will always be better than no movement.

Chris Hudson: 23:14
Yeah, that’s right. Yeah. I always like when I started out in work, there were certain people that would get up off their seat in the middle of a meeting or a workshop and just kind of dance around the room a little bit. And I thought, no, do you have to be a certain level of seniority to do that? I don’t know, but it was kind of, I started doing it when I was older in my later career. But to begin with, I was terrified of just standing up and walking around, but do you reckon that’s okay now?

Cailie Ford: 23:39
Oh, look, it’s contagious. Sure. Who doesn’t love to inject a bit of that positivity into the work? Like, it’s definitely, I mean, safer to do it at home.

Chris Hudson: 23:50
That’s the other thing, because a home habit around work has now been established, obviously, since people have been working at home a little bit more. So it’s good and bad. And obviously if, if exercise and movement and nutrition isn’t baked into your home life, just the same as it. maybe isn’t baked into your CBD kind of office life, then some of these habits, kind of, they creep in and fridge, which is full of the goodies that you’d normally have at the weekend is kind of there ready for you to kind of pick from on a Monday lunchtime. So what’s the easiest way to kind of start putting good habits into practice? Do you think?

Cailie Ford: 24:22
I think it’s about first understanding and acknowledging the habit loops of what actually happens. With the brain in order for a habit to form. So without a trigger, there’s no reminder for the habit to occur. So in our business life, you wouldn’t expect to roll into a Monday without any of your work meetings in your calendar and just hope for the best that you’re going to remember where you’re supposed to be at a certain time. You just wouldn’t do that. You book them in because they’re a priority. They’re important. So that’s the starting point. If you want to implement a new healthy habit. I encourage people to treat it like you would an important business meeting with your boss. Put it in your calendar, be specific about what it is so that you’ve got that trigger there. And it could be as simple as great apps. These days, there’s the habit app clue is in the name. And so you input any of the habits that you want to undertake. And then it pings you at different points in the day to drink more water or eat fruit or whatever it may be. So the trigger is the most important thing. It’s similar to, if you want to go to the gym in the morning, the best thing that you can do is put your exercise gear out somewhere obvious so that it’s there in the morning. Rather than just hoping that you’ll wake up and remember and feel inclined to do it. So you want to remove those barriers. Whenever you’re trying to implement something helpful and healthy, you want to remove the barriers to make it as easy as possible. Another example, if you want to eat more fruit, put a fruit bowl in the centre of the counter, the office or at home. So that it’s the first thing that you see because the brain is lazy in a lot of these situations. That’s how habits form because we just want to look for those shortcuts and we want to do the same thing over and over again. So making it as easy as possible to perform is the starting point. Response is the actual habit that you perform. So knowing that when your exercise gear is out that you’re going to go to the gym. And then once you’ve done that thing, you get that reward, you get that dopamine, you get those endorphins, and then you’re more inclined to repeat that habit. So. It’s important to understand that the dopamine hit that we get is the greatest predictor about whether we’re going to perform that habit again. So we want to make sure that whatever we’re trying to do that it feels good and fuels us so that we’re more inclined to keep repeating it.

Chris Hudson: 26:55
That’s the sort of formula for building out positive habits and good habits, which is great to hear because I think we can so easily be influenced by the people that are around us as well, the situations that we’re in. In a corporate setting, it could be around hundreds, hundreds of people, right? And you’re seeing what they’re doing every day. And if somebody is just eating burritos every day, you know, they’re at the desk just banging out the presentation or whatever they need to be doing. It’s telling you, you know, whether you think it or not, that that’s kind of something that people do, if you did only have 10 minutes for your lunch break, you might end up doing that too. So it’s a hard one to navigate. We live in a sort of abundance of food. There’s access to a lot of options, right? From a fast food point of view and navigating that is also quite difficult and preparing for good food choices. Like you were saying is actually really difficult too. So if you were preparing your own lunch and bringing it in with certain ingredients, then that’s fine. But if you went. for a walk down the street and there were 25 different options and three of your mates are going to get this and somebody else is going to get that, then you’re going to be influenced by that to some extent as well. So it’s hard in a way to kind of counter that at an individual level, but I still feel like people now need to wake up to the fact. They need to take more responsibility for themselves, what they’re putting into their bodies, essentially, because this big kind of food epidemic, sit with people for many years, the habits will just be ingrained. And then at the end, you’re thinking about retirement and people are then going to have health problems, right? Because they’ll have had all those habits for 20, 30, 40 years or whatever it is in the corporate world.

Cailie Ford: 28:23
It’s chronic already, isn’t it? It is, and I think those kind of behaviours filter down because people need to feel empowered and that they have permission from more senior leaders to do the things that are in the best interest of their well being. I love, there’s a tech company that has a concept of leaders leaving loudly, where it’s not a case of everyone just trying to sit at their desk. For till the end hour and wait for the leader before they can leave, but leaders making it okay for other people to step away, go home to their families, go home to their pets, whatever it may be, go home to their housemates to try and disrupt those ingrained habits about being the last one. In the office for sure. I think as well, having conversations at a team level around creating sort of guiding principles for a team around what’s okay, because we’re all kind of forced into this scenario when the pandemic hit and everyone was working from home all of a sudden overnight. Now, some teams had done it. For a while. And it was not new news, but other ones are really shocked about it and trying to put in place habits as a team where you could all work together and still be productive and get what you needed from each other for in the best interest of the business, but not many teams were having helpful conversations around what does it look like from our behaviours on a personal level that actually support business performance. So an example would be, what are our rules around how and when are we taking breaks and which meetings can we do as walk and talk meetings? Are we making it okay for each other to go to the gym at lunch or is that a before and after? Working and coming to that sort of group agreement because it’s no good one person deciding that this is what I need to do for myself without considering how it impacts the team, but rather having upfront conversations so that it can work for everyone. In really helpful ways while still supporting those group and team outcomes for the business.

Chris Hudson: 30:43
Yeah. Cause I think that it then becomes a shared responsibility, it’s not just on the individual, it’s not you and me basically trying to figure out how we’re going to make it better for ourselves, but it becomes a shared problem, shared solution, everyone’s working together to try and make that workplace a lot healthier. Um, and if the conditions are set up, then that can obviously happen. It’s a bit easier.

Cailie Ford: 31:01
Happier. employees are more engaged, all the research points that when they feel supported, when they feel that their wellbeing is a priority, they’re going to be more productive, more creative. You’re going to retain staff longer, have less turnover, and you’re going to also have less sick days. So it’s something that shouldn’t be. Under-prioritised looking after the well being of people because we know how much sick days already cost the Australian economy billions and billions of dollars every year and poor sleep alone contributes to, I think it was 12 days per employee of lost productivity each year. So really looking after the well being of people. Your people and making sure that people are empowered to do the same thing for themselves. So important. And everyone wins in that scenario.

Chris Hudson: 31:57
In wellbeing terms, how does a company set up something that doesn’t like, it’s just another virtual yoga? And it’s coming from the heart, right? From the leadership and whoever’s involved in the committee, they want to make sure that it’s set up. But how do you do it in a way that feels like it’s important, relevant, people are going to do it, people can get behind it, without it just being this service to something that they feel like they should be doing?

Cailie Ford: 32:21
So I will lean on my change management experience with that. The most important thing. It’s to ask people what they want. Too often, organisations are afraid to ask because they’re afraid of what people are going to feedback to them. But I’ll often, when I’m working with a particular contact within an organisation, and let’s say we run one workshop or we’re looking to run the first workshop and they’ll be kind of choosing between my suite of options and they might be on a wellbeing committee and HR and I’ll say to them, do you know what is a priority for people? And they’ll say, Oh, I like the look of this. And I say, well, if we’ve got time. I think it’s really important to put some feelers out and ask people what they want, what are they interested in? Because that’s going to maxim engagement and make it meaningful for people rather than feeling like something is being done to them. But if you take them on the journey and empower them along the way, then you’re going to have maximum uptake and maxim the positive outcomes from that initiative as well.

Chris Hudson: 33:33
Playing that out. I mean, what have been some of the initiatives that you think have worked really well?

Cailie Ford: 33:37
One client that I’ve done a lot of work with over a number of years, I think what has worked so well for them is that it’s not just one workshop as a one off because that’s a great starting point as an example, you know, to learn a little bit about nutrition. Great. People have A chance to ask questions, get a little bit of knowledge, but from a change perspective, is that going to embed the types of behaviours and habits that you’re wanting to see as positive outcomes for people? Probably not, because it’s just a little bite sized piece of knowledge. Whereas embedding An ongoing well being program where I get the opportunity to work with organisations ongoing. So you get to see that shift, so regular interventions. And then more than that, this particular client that I’m referring to, they engage me to run an annual wellness clinic where I see their people one on one. So it’s more than a group workshop on a broad topic, but actually going deep into their wellbeing so that I can make recommendations for them and prescribe custom meal plans to them as individual, clinically indicated supplements, stuff that is going to really change their health. So that everyone is being taken on this journey together and the outcomes have been incredible. The managing director said that they’ve got an entire new language set in the office around wellbeing and people are empowered to keep each other accountable to healthy habits. So it’s changed the entire culture. Of an organisation and that’s pretty incredible.

Chris Hudson: 35:24
So many addictive kind of behaviours in the work setting and they’re not all positive unfortunately. Yeah. You kind of pick up a lot of that but actually if you can flip it the other way and actually turn addiction into something for good then that’s really cool. It sounds like you’ve been able to achieve that with work that you’re doing so that’s nicely done.

Cailie Ford: 35:42
It’s rewarding.

Chris Hudson: 35:44
It’s rewarding. Yeah. It’s rewarding. You see it. You see it change. Yeah. Happy people. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Cailie Ford: 35:48
Absolutely.

Chris Hudson: 35:50
I mean, you wonder whether a totally happy workforce is possible, you know, can that be achieved? I don’t know.

Cailie Ford: 35:55
So it’s a unicorn moment. Again, leading on change management, you can’t make everyone happy, but you can certainly, yeah, you can certainly try. And I feel like the personal wellbeing interventions. Are always going to do better than say a generalised video yoga or whatever it may be.

Chris Hudson: 36:18
Yeah. Yeah. Cause there’s obviously like mental first aid and some other practices coming in now which are really well received as well. So if you’re thinking at that level and it’s at an individual level, do you think there’s, there are things that people can be doing for each other almost one to one that could help?

Cailie Ford: 36:33
I think it’s about creating connections with people so that you know people and that you’re able to, if you notice that they are under a huge amount of stress or not doing so well or losing their way or starting to take sick days, a lot of mental health leave, that you’re able to check in with them and say, are you okay? Um, I think that’s a great starting point. But also not on, not underestimating the power of every one of us being a role model, because I have been in different roles of varying levels of seniority in an organisation. But always felt like a role model in the well being space and because it was something that I was always so passionate about, was able to take people on that journey with me. So I think not underestimating the power that you have as an individual to have that positive impact on others.

Chris Hudson: 37:33
Yeah, definitely. Definitely. There’s always the kind of kitchen chat where people are busy preparing food and pulling things out of the fridge and, you know, some curiosity really around what people are managing to rustle up. And there’s always something going on. There’s always something to learn from, I found.

Cailie Ford: 37:47
Yes, absolutely. The kitchen chat, wonderful. Like the water cooler chat.

Chris Hudson: 37:51
We’re talking about responsibility within the organisation, so obviously we can take responsibility for ourselves and our own actions. We can help some other people. Sounds like the leadership can also take some responsibility in setting up the conditions in the right way. But I think even that takes it so far. But there’s also the bit that we’re trying to get around, which is around probably the information, the misinformation. Information that’s out there around nutrition, some of the common mistakes people make in, in terms of what’s healthy and what’s not. And that can be really hard because when you’re looking for a shortcut to a good meal or a healthy snack, then you’re often falling on the things that maybe aren’t that good for you either. So have you found that to be the case? There’s a lot of stuff, obviously in the shops, the supermarket that looks like it’s healthy, but it’s just not.

Cailie Ford: 38:31
I think it’s really difficult. We have never been in a better position to find the information that we desire. But it’s a double edged sword because we are so overwhelmed and find ourselves in a position of paralysis by analysis because it feels like you’re told something one day, like intermittent fasting is the best thing ever, and then we’re hearing that paleo, carnivore, vegan, there’s a different diet. Every day. And then, like you mentioned, you go into the supermarket and you want to do the right thing. You want to go for a healthier option, but then you learn later that it’s not so much. So I have a really pragmatic approach to nutrition where I don’t purport the need to lean on organic everything, because that is just not achievable for so many people, and full disclosure, that’s not how I eat. My thing, a bit like what I mentioned earlier, that any movement is better than no movement. Any fruit or vegetable is better than no fruit or vegetable, so don’t overthink it. Just get, and I know there’s judgment around, some people would say they never get their fruit and veggies from Woollies or Coles and you need to get it from farmer’s markets, that fruit and veggies in Coles have no nutritional value. That’s not true, they do. The one thing that I do, advocate for is eating seasonally. A, it’s cheaper because you’re eating what’s in season, it’s also fresher. Because fresh produce, so fresh fruit and veggies, have got live enzymes in them, as opposed to fruit and veggies that have been refrigerated for months and months on end, and brought in from other countries. So eating seasonally is a really, really great start, because it forces the variety Into your diet so that you’re eating different things all year round because that’s what our gut bugs love. They love the variety of fibre from different fruits and veggies. So that’s a great start. Then from what a balanced plate looks like, I like to give people just a really simple visual guide that you don’t have to be weighing things and calorie counting or that’s not how I practice, that’s not what I have my clients do, but to construct a visual plate where you’ve got a quarter of the plate is covered in a protein. So whether that is a vegetarian protein like tofu or fish or an animal sauce like steak or chicken, a quarter of it has got a starch source. So that could be potato, rice, pasta, sweet potato, pumpkin, something like that, because we need carbohydrates. They are your brand’s preferred source of fuel, so we’re not about cutting the cards. And then ideally, 50 percent of your plate is covered with colourful veg. So if you took nothing else away, that’s a really great starting point to make sure that you’re getting a balanced plate. And then from the packaged goods perspective, there are some really great brands here in Australia. I am loving FroPro is a brand, they do pizzas, they do burritos, and a couple of other things. It’s high protein, high fibre, wonderful. So those are great convenience foods. And then the rest, I wouldn’t overthink it when you’ve got the bulk of your food, if you’re making Meals at home and ideally we want to remove the barriers where you’re buying food when you go into the city or having to make new lunches the next day. Just take leftovers. It’s the simplest thing. Make enough dinner that you can take some for lunch the next day. Heat it up. Happy days. That way you’re in control of the ingredients. You know what’s going into it. It’s really easy. You don’t have to overthink it. Done. And then if you’ve got the bulk of your food that’s coming from Whole Foods. If you’ve got some treat food in there, I advocate strongly for retaining treat foods in the diet because you’ve got to have some fun. You’ve got to feed the soul. So there’s no reason why you can’t have a bit of chocolate, some lollies, cake, whatever floats your boat personally. But having a little bit of that soul food in the diet is just a nice little ritual. There is a big difference between sitting down for A piece of cake or say a Tim Tam, if you’ve fuelled yourself well, you’ve started the day with that nicely balanced breakfast, you’ve had a nice lunch, and then you sit down, say, with a cup of tea and a treat of your choosing, great, do that, that’s a lovely ritual where you can make a moment of it, versus you haven’t eaten all day or you’ve tried to restrict yourself, you open up the sleeve of Tim Tams and all of a sudden you just inhale them before even thinking, and And then you perpetuate and cycle all of restrict and bend. That’s a problem.

Chris Hudson: 43:36
Yeah. Or regret.

Cailie Ford: 43:39
Absolutely. You just want it into the cycle of regret. And that’s doing nothing for it because every food has its place. There is no. One food that is a super food that might be controversial, but there is no one food that is a super food. All fruits and veggies, in my opinion, are super foods and similarly there is no food. There is no one food or nutrient like sugar or carbs or anything like that that is more responsible for weight gain or weight loss. It’s simply not true. Overall, caloric intake is what dictates whether you gain weight, stay the same or lose weight. How I work with my clients to approach nutrition is we just think about what are the nutrients that my body needs for my brain to work well, for my brain to be productive, for me to be creative at work, for me to have a stable mood, for me to be motivated to exercise and have the energy to exercise. One of those nutrients that we need, and we just need that balance of protein and carbs and fats, so our macronutrients, and when we get those nutrients from whole foods, they’re underpinned by all the micronutrients like zinc and selenium and iron and vitamin A and B vitamins and all those beautiful things. That’s a lovely place to be in.

Chris Hudson: 45:00
All right, sounds good. You’ve explained it very well. I think it’s inspiring because it doesn’t focus on that one ingredient. Everyone wants to make a villain out of something that they eat.

Cailie Ford: 45:09
You know,

Chris Hudson: 45:09
it’s sugar or it’s too many carbs or it’s this or that or there’s alcohol or whatever, but it just feels like it’s not any of those things. It’s just about balance and making sure that the, the foundational aspects of what you’re eating are in balance, but also there. Yeah, I was watching another TV show about the microbiome the other night. Just in preparation, it was saying something like you had to eat like 20, 20 to 30 different vegetable types every week just to introduce that variety into the gut. And I’ve no idea how many vegetables or fruits I eat every week. So I’m actually making a list this week of how many I’m doing. Yeah. It feels like a lot.

Cailie Ford: 45:46
So it’s, it’s plant foods, and so that’s a good guide. Plant foods include nuts, seeds, lentils, pulses, whole grains. So you don’t have to find 30 different types of lettuce, which could seem overwhelming. Um, but all of those different plants, exactly, in season, that it’s 30 different types of plant foods. But again, setting people up for. Success is what I like to do and starting if someone is only eating two different types of plant foods a day, let’s increase that to five and then build from there. So don’t feel if you’re not hitting that 30 different types of plant foods yet, it’s not like that is just a number to never be achieved, but just try. Next time you go to the supermarket or the farmer’s markets or wherever you get your fruits and veggies, branch out and try something that you’ve never tried before. It could be a different type of lettuce or it could be some sprouted seeds or maybe you normally eat spinach in a salad and try some rocket because any different type of food is going to have a different type of fibre in it. And that is what our microbiome really, really loves. So just find those little bite sized steps that you can do to just change things up a little bit so that you’re not eating the same, broccoli carrots and peas all year round.

Chris Hudson: 47:17
Yeah. Yeah. Cause there’s a ton of supplements and things you can get out there as well. I mean, that could quickly erode your paycheque.

Cailie Ford: 47:23
Yeah. And I find it really sad because a lot of my clients come to me taking so many supplements that they’re rattling. And I actually had. Yeah. Vegetarian client just last week and she was taking greens powder because she thought that that’s what it was well-marketed on Instagram, I think and you said of course, I was just taking it and I said Exactly, and I said it’s not doing you any harm But you’re a vegetarian. All you eat is plant foods you know if someone was coming to me and wasn’t eating any plant foods from a clinical perspective. Would I start with the greens powder? No, I would be more inclined to get them onto like a nice tasty smoothie that would get really nice flavours with some delicious like mango or strawberries or whatever flavour. That’s how I would start to get in some more veggies as a starting point. Greens powders, for the most part, they’re definitely not doing you any harm, but they are really expensive and it’s a bit like a multivitamin where they’ve got kind of micro amounts of nutrients, so not a bad thing, but are they at a therapeutic dose that you’re actually getting the health benefits from? More often than not, no. I think as well experimenting with different ways of cooking and preparing veg. People think of a salad and they think, Oh, cucumber, carrot, lettuce, boring. But a roast veg salad that has got some nice seeds on there for crunch. You’ve got some. Goat cheese feta or halloumi or whatever kind of cheese that you like with a nice protein on there, whether it’s salmon or chicken, how delicious to sit down to that. So it’s about changing people’s perspective on things as well. Or if you’re English and you grew up in a family where the veggies, We’re cooked for so long for a Sunday roast that they turn grey. It’s about rewiring the brain that not all veggies need to be cooked that way. Check. I can relate. So we can stir fry things or we can steam them or we can sauté them with flavour. That’s another thing. It’s like you don’t have to sit down. To steamed broccoli with absolutely no zing to it, if you don’t enjoy veggies, get some nice spices, some herbs, a nice dressing. That’s another thing that diet culture has ruined for people, that they think that they can’t have a little drizzle of dressing because it’s got too much sugar or too much fat. But then what happens is that they don’t eat a salad at all. Because it doesn’t taste good. So let’s just think about this logically, put some dressing on it, make it taste good and eat the veggies, eat the fruit.

Chris Hudson: 50:08
Already really good stuff. And I wanted to ask you one other thing, which is probably about how we decided what we’re going to eat. But in terms of. How we eat, some of those situations, because obviously a lot of, a lot of times in a rush, particularly at work, sometimes it might be evening, kids, there’s a lot of chaos, and obviously there’s this notion of mindful eating, which is maybe encouraging us to slow down and think a little bit more about what we’re eating, when we’re eating it, so that we could pay attention more to that. Should bring you and restore you to a better kind of mental position as well, but is there anything in that area that you hear is coming up?

Cailie Ford: 50:39
It might sound a bit woo to some people, this idea of voluntary eating, but it’s actually rooted in science. Because if we think about the physiological reactions that need to happen and also physical reactions to food. So our digestion starts working when we look at food. And that’s why a pretty meal is great because it’s appealing and If you think about when you’re hungry and you’re looking at a tasty meal, you start salivating. So those are your digestive juices that are starting to work. That’s a really good thing. So sitting down and actually engaging with your meal. A nice saying is that you should never eat if you can see your knees. So no more eating in front of the TV with your plate on your knees, but sit at a table, sit down and make it a moment. And there are some cultures around the world which really showcase in terms of longevity and their way to approaching food is making it a social interaction that we weren’t made to eat alone and just shovel our food in front of the computer. Because if you think about. You’re in a stressed mood, so you’ve got high cortisol, you’re in amongst work deadlines, and then you’re throwing food in front of you and you’re shovelling. What stress is doing, it actually lowers your stomach acid, so it inhibits your ability to digest and absorb nutrients as well as what we should. Now, that can lead to all sorts of problems. The least of which is a bit of bloating, a bit of cramping, but when we’ve got chronic stress, it changes the intestinal lining, which is normally I like to describe it as like a butterfly net. And then when we’re stressed, it loosens it and just for visual reason, think about it like a fisherman’s net with really big holes and then food particles can escape elsewhere into the body, wreaking havoc, creating inflammation and can also trigger off autoimmunity in extreme cases. So we really want to be focused on lowering our stress levels when we sit down to a meal. So sit down to a table, look at your food, smell it, allow your body to prepare for receiving food and don’t shovel it. So some of the techniques I recommend for clients is putting your knife and fork down in between bites, taking a sip of water, setting a timer. Another great strategy, especially for families where mealtimes can be pretty hectic. And I’ve got. A seven, a five and a three year old. I didn’t say my meal times are relaxed in the slightest, but what we have introduced is, it’s called Family Talking Point. These cards that just inspire conversation. And I mean, the three year old’s a little bit loose in this interpretation, but the older two get it, and I can see the benefit as it goes on. But it’s just forcing us to stop and talk and engage with each other because meals are there to be enjoyed, we shouldn’t be just eating to fill a hole and then go on to the next thing really stopping because we’re able to more accurately on a hunger satiety cues so that we can actually register when we’re full. Rather than sitting down in front of the TV and like shovelling a bowl of ice cream in five minutes or, you know, eating a block of chocolate and then thinking at the 20 minute mark when our stomach is actually registered and you spiral into that guilt and shame cycle of what we’ve done. So that would be a really important step to take, particularly for families, because we’re role modelling those positive behaviours and habits for the next generation. And it’s also benefiting our own health and well being.

Chris Hudson: 54:30
Yeah, I mean, I think there’s lots of great stuff in that. Thank you. And yeah, I mean, the attention span of us, let alone our children is, it feels like it’s really different to how it was when we were growing up. They, they want to just sit down, eat and go. And if they’re not listening to something in their ear or watching it. You know, screen at the same time. It feels like it’s a rare thing, basically to, to all be eating at the same time and to be enjoying that ceremony of eating in some sort of way. Yeah, it’s a hard one. I’ll tell you a funny story, which is I went on a mindfulness course. One of my previous employers, there was a whole module on mindful eating. And part of this module was the start of it. She handed out a square of chocolate to everyone in the room. By the time she’d gone around the room to hand out the chocolate, I’d already eaten my chocolate, right? So, because I didn’t know what was going to happen, I just ate it. And that was just a complete knee jerk reaction, because that’s how I normally would approach the situation of getting the chocolate out and eating it. But it was totally the wrong thing to do. And yeah, I felt really guilty about it. She gave me another one, thankfully, but it was a bit embarrassing. Failed that test miserably, yeah. I did listen to the lesson and then, yeah, felt even more guilty, not just for having just eaten it, but yeah. But, but also no, no attention span whatsoever. But yeah, I think what you’re saying is incredibly important, particularly as we should really place a value on that occasion, but also the, the nutrients through the things we’re bringing into our body feel like incredibly important and those things can be often overlooked. So really enjoyed our chat today, Cailie and you. Bringing such a fresh and lively perspective to the way in which we eat, the things we can think about, particularly within a working environment, just feels like it’s, it’s often neglected. And I think we can do some very simple things. And you’ve been kind enough and really generous with your, your knowledge and wisdom around that so that people can try a few other things out. If there’s a way in which people could get in touch, you know, they want to ask you a question or if they want to find out more about your work, where would they find you?

Cailie Ford: 56:15
Thank you, Chris. A great place to start is heading to my website, Cailie Ford nutrition. com. I’ve got a range of free resources to download blog articles on different nutrition topics and you can learn more about my workplace well being services, but if you’re looking for a more personalised support, you can reach out for a free discovery call to tell about your goals, my approach, and see if it’s a great fit for you. Specifically, I special in gut health, hormones, sustainable fat loss, and women’s health. So if any of those resonate with you, I’m definitely here to help. And then from socials, you can connect with me on LinkedIn. I’d love to hear from you or on Instagram, Cailie Ford Nutrition.

Chris Hudson: 57:03
Wonderful. All right. And what’s for dinner tonight?

Cailie Ford: 57:06
We have eaten dinner. Come on. I’ve got three kids. So we have prison tea at 530 and we had veggie loaded tacos. This is a controversial thing in my house. I was telling someone about it yesterday and they could not get their head around it. We have Taco Monday, not Taco Tuesday, because I prepared the taco itself on a Sunday so that I don’t have to do it on a Monday night. That’s another one of my little efficiency hacks, is very few meals in my working rank are actually cooked from scratch on the night. A lot of it is prepared and then I just assemble. So tonight, Was taco Monday.

Chris Hudson: 57:44
Very good. You heard it here first. It’s a new thing. Um, thanks so much, Cailie. We really, really appreciate the chat and thank you. I’ll leave you to your evening now. We’ll go back to

Cailie Ford: 57:52
Thank you so much, Chris. Great to chat with you.

Chris Hudson: 57:55
Thank you.

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