Boys to Men: Man’s long awaited journey to inclusive leadership

“Young people will do things or do behaviours that perhaps, you know, aren’t in line with their core values and their belief systems. But it’s because what they see other people doing that they think they need to do those things in order to fit in.”
Joel Hines

In this episode you’ll hear about

• How the world of work needs to change to enable more gender diversity, safety, and positive environments
• How role models play a crucial role in shaping behaviour, particularly in the teenage years
• Authenticity and self-discovery and their importance in the workplace
• How to create a safe and open environment for conversations about emotions and personal experiences
• How taking time for reflection and considering alternative perspectives can lead to more creative and effective solutions
• How personal criticism should be approached with curiosity and a willingness to understand one’s own reactions

Key links

Being Human

Joel’s book ‘Holding Space’

Joel’s TEDx Talk

Rites of Passage Institute

Man Cave Global

KAOSPILOT

About our guest

Throughout a career spanning over 25 years working in Mental Health, I.T., Training, Educational Leadership and Group Facilitation, there has been a common theme of guiding others to explore the shared experience of being human.

With his finely honed skills of empathy and compassion, Joel Hines is at his absolute best when he is holding space for others. He naturally adapts to the situation at hand and exercises deep listening and presence with a calm and considered energy.

Exemplifying integrity and authenticity, Joel motivates and enables leaders to cultivate engagement, foster collaboration and empower others.Joel’s natural gift for storytelling, combined with his calm and approachable demeanour, fuels his passion for enriching workplace connections and fostering the growth of facilitation skills and confidence.

Simultaneously, he diligently addresses the essential human needs of belonging and purpose. He firmly subscribes to the notion that collaboration, agency and empowerment stand as pivotal factors in allowing individuals to not only survive but truly thrive.

About our host

Our host, Chris Hudson, is a Teacher, Experience Designer and Founder of business transformation coaching and consultancy Company Road.

Company Road was founded by Chris Hudson, who saw over-niching and specialisation within corporates as a significant barrier to change.

Chris considers himself incredibly fortunate to have worked with some of the world’s most ambitious and successful companies, including Google, Mercedes-Benz, Accenture (Fjord) and Dulux, to name a small few. He continues to teach with University of Melbourne in Innovation, and Academy Xi in CX, Product Management, Design Thinking and Service Design and mentors many business leaders internationally.

Transcript

Chris Hudson: 0:06
Hello everyone and welcome back to the show and I want to start today with a bit of a provocation as it’s pretty apparent that a lot about the world of work still needs to change in one way or another for it to feel okay and for it to feel safe with and for a lot of people. So I’d like to challenge us to reflect on this in this episode. There are a lot of stats around pay gap, a lot of stats around gender diversity. At a leadership level stats around harassment, discrimination, and around violence towards women. in some cases resulting in death, as has been made known to us quite prominently in the media in the last few weeks as well. So it’s a big thing, and it’s something that it feels like we need to address. And to have today’s conversation is really important. So I think if, if we as humans, in whichever way we identify, male, female, or otherwise, as, as people who participate in the world of work we almost have a duty of care when it comes to keep. Keeping people safe. And as leaders, we want to bring some of the conditions together that make that work and to build on, on the workplace as a positive environment in some way, both establishing safety in the workplace, but also setting conditions for success so that people can flourish in some way or another. So, in this month, we’ve been talking about growth and how businesses and organisations can set the foundations for success in some way. And I’ve got a feeling that, we’ve, we’ve had those chats and I really want to go a bit deeper today. And I think we need to go deeper for, for bigger change to be made possible in some way. So to think about the people who we are and to also bring. Bring more of ourselves, to the work, that we do every day. So, who are we and who are we bringing to work each day? And I’ve got a feeling that this, this will be a kind of fitting conclusion to this month’s theme of growth, as we go deeper. So to help us explore this topic and to unearth the subject of role models and the role that men in particular can play and need to play in making more positive change within the workplace. I’ve found it really And truly exceptional guest to talk to today. So Joel Hines, massive welcome to the show. Really appreciate you coming on. Just, yeah, thanks so much.

Joel Hines: 2:09
Oh, thanks Chris. It’s a pleasure to be here. I really appreciate the opportunity.

Chris Hudson: 2:13
Yeah, great. And Joel, we caught up recently for coffee and a toasty nearby in Daylesford, which is, outside of Melbourne. But yeah, what a pleasure that was, you’re a facilitator, you’re an educator, author. But you’ve done a few things along the way, you worked in IT, you’ve been a principal at a school, you were director of education training at the Rites of Passage Institute and a head of Academy at the Man Cave Global, which is Australia’s leading preventative mental health charity for teenage boys and their communities. And you’ve done a lot of amazing things. You’ve also done the legendary KAOSPILOT training, which you know, we might talk about as well. If you haven’t heard of that, you should check it out. But I think we’re really well placed today to have this discussion about the role of men and the behaviours that we, we, Both kind of model for everyone models. These behaviours, I think, for men, it feels like, like with anybody behaviours form from an early age, and then you take them into the workplace in some way. And obviously, we think about these things, maybe less frequently, but we can have a huge. Influence personally, really and we can, we have a huge capability and opportunity really to facilitate change within the workplaces that we spend a lot of time in. So I want to start with, I mean, that’s the workplace and the workforce and everything else. Before that happens, if we rewind to where things, start to form, in terms of behaviours and attitudes and values. I want to start with adolescents and, and particularly boys, the boys that you worked with, and I’d love to just hear about some of the situations that you’ve been privy to and maybe just, just describe some of the work that you’ve done if we can start with that.

Joel Hines: 3:44
Yeah, sure. I think the first thing that comes to mind is like my own teenage experience, right? Like, so as a teenager myself, like that was a lived experience for me. And I’m not sure what kind of teenager you were, but for me, I was very much like the chameleon type that would, sort of change my kind of perspective potentially, depending on what group that I was in and just really try and morph into, the persona that needed to happen. In order to kind of connect and be part of that group. And I guess like the work that I’ve done, over the last seven years or so has been largely with teenage boys. And I really see that playing out like there’s the two things that really sort of stick out to me. One. Is there, there’s a fear of judgment, fear of being judged for either being, different or being, something else other than what, the people in that group might be. And the other one is like, I guess it kind of is a paradox or, or, or sort of joins with that, is that that fear of not fitting in or not being part of the group. And so sometimes, like myself. Young people will do things or do behaviours that perhaps, aren’t in line with their core values and their belief systems, but it’s because what they see other people doing that they think they need to do those things in order to fit in. And so I guess one of the big things that, in the work that I’ve done with young people is being, really trying to see them and help them to kind of see themselves and identity is what they’re looking for. They’re trying to find who they are and who they want to become. And so, giving them an opportunity to see different aspects of, masculinity, femininity, being a citizen of the world, gives them a more rounded viewer or more rounded approach in order to really become who it is that they are. And so when I think about like, how does that then translate then into the workplace? Well, young people grow up, young people have that conditioning from a young age of, who are the people that are around them, the role models that they look up to. And let’s face it, like if you’re a parent, if you’re a teacher, if you’re, even, a coach in a footy club, or even if an uncle or something like that, you, you are a role model because, young people are looking. And seeing maybe not like consciously, but they’re seeing who, who you are, how you behave, how you show up. And they will then try to emulate that. They’ll try and copy those behaviours. And so the idea of having role models, doesn’t seem to sort of change for us. Each little step up the little ladder of life that we go on, we’ve always got people above us that we’re kind of seeking to, be a bit like or wanting to sort of live into. Oh, I love the way they do that or their strengths or they gives. And so I think, when we think about the workplace and, being leaders, certainly from my experience, I’ve tried to lead with that knowledge of being a role model in mind.

Chris Hudson: 6:29
And, and tell me about that. I mean, your experience, you’re talking a bit about your teenage years a little bit and the type of teenager that you were, and maybe since then you’ve obviously reflected on how that role modelling, what it meant to you personally but tell us, tell us a bit about your journey through the stages of work and the things that you’ve done and, how that theme almost connects to the things that you’ve been able to do through work.

Joel Hines: 6:51
Yeah. Well, the first step into the workplace was as an occupational therapist and I went into mental health. And so I had interestingly in the course that the university degree four years of university and then also into the profession was largely dominated by females. And so it was sort of like a 70 30 split. And so a lot of the role modelling in terms of the, I guess, the care environment or the, or the helping profession sort of environment, I was getting sort of cues and role modelling from, from women largely, which was, really interesting experience for me to, lean into some of those aspects of, of my own personality, I fully believe that we, you know, we each have masculine and feminine within us. And it’s, it’s about balancing those two things rather than being one or the other. And so like the experience of actually having a lot of role models in that sort of setting in the, in the female sort of persona was, was able, enabled me, I suppose, to live into perhaps sort of more of the feminine side of me. Then when I moved into I.T., which was sort of a bit of a jump after, a couple of different changes it was largely I was largely on my own. I was working for myself and I was working for a lot of small businesses. I was almost like the I.T. Department that you call when you know you’re not being enough to have an I.T. Department. And so I was working with a mix of different people, but I was taking a lot of, my cues or whatever from, information that I was looking up or people that are studying to get more information. And that was a whole range of different people again. And then when I moved into education and training and also in the school’s environment, again in primary schools, largely female dominated industry but then when we were sort of step outside of that, there’s a lot of, male leadership in, in, in some of those schools as well. And so again, there was a range of different experiences that I was drawing upon and seeing within my mind’s eye. And I really started to reflect, I suppose, what, what is it that is innately me? What is, what is my authentic leadership? And. What I came to realise, I guess, was that I had all the answers for myself. I didn’t have to necessarily take all the cues from everyone. Obviously they were influences and ideas, but ultimately my identity came from me. And so I guess what I do in my work now is really encourage leaders, to be more themselves, to share more of themselves. And be truly who they are, because I’ve experienced it when, when it’s not been that way, I’ve been in leadership positions where I’ve taken that kind of stoic masculine role of I need to have all the answers. I need to be in control. I don’t show my emotions. I, I don’t necessarily kind of ask for help when I need it. And it’s those examples in my experience that like I’ve learned the lesson the hard way is like it’s not good for me and it’s not good for my team around me, particularly from a mental health perspective and well being perspective, but also getting the best results. Right? Like if we collaborate with everyone in our team and ultimately use the gifts and the strengths that all of the members of the team have, and they contribute to the solution of innovation or product or whatever it might be, then ultimately the products can be much better than any idea I could bring to the table on its own. So I guess like, through all the experiences I’ve had, it’s really been about coming back to the authentic person that I am and being that as much as I can. So then I can role model that for others, you know, and, and, in leadership positions where I’ve kind of cognitively had that kind of sense of who I am and being real, other people have shown up in the same way. It’s almost like it gives them permission to be themselves as well.

Chris Hudson: 10:23
Yeah, okay. So you’re almost demonstrating the values and the behaviours that you want to see in other people a little bit too. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, I mean, that’s interesting. I think, not a lot of people have been in a fortunate position like you have to, to kind of move from, managing kids essentially in primary school setting to, to obviously seeing the other side, which is in the world of work. Which is, which is a different place, but maybe if you can manage kids, you can manage grownups. I don’t know. Does it start with you or does it start with the people around you? What do you think?

Joel Hines: 10:53
I think it always starts with yourself. You’ve got to have the awareness of yourself first before you’re able to recognise it necessarily in others. But I definitely think there are behaviours that I have carried from my childhood, my teenage years into my adult life, and I’ve definitely seen that play out for others as well. Particularly, like, if I ask the question, what kind of teenager were you? Quite often, like, you see little nuances of behaviours in those, in those people that are still there from, those teenage years. We’re going to remember when that identity forms, like our brains haven’t fully developed, but we’re getting all these news signals and information in about who we possibly could be, what the world is asking for us, all those sorts of things. And that identity can hold really strongly at that time. We’re really open. I guess to the, different ideas and different influences. And so some of those things can really stick at that point and then stay with us, and, I’ve just turned 50 and it’s like, I’m still unraveling some of those things from my own experience.

Chris Hudson: 11:51
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think that’s an interesting point, isn’t it? Because the, I guess your, your capacity for learning and, the extent to which you would. Want to learn from other people in various situations. Maybe that appetite kind of goes up and down. Like sometimes you’re really hungry for it one day. Other times you’re not, like you’re more in your own head space and you’re trying to project more. So I think that that constant fluctuation, it feels like from self awareness to, to feeling the outside inputs and the outside influences that you can obviously learn from. It’s kind of an interesting dynamic. How much time do you spend around, what type of people in the, in the day at work, how is that affecting you? What are you taking from it? Some of these questions sort of, you wouldn’t think of it that actively or that consciously through the day, but if you think back actually, it’s a bit like when they talk about, the five people that you spend the most time with and how they have the most influence over you in who you are today. And is that right? You, you hanging around with people that have got a negative influence, I mean, all of that stuff would be true from. The school days, right?

Joel Hines: 12:52
Definitely.

Chris Hudson: 12:53
Is that like you’re making these choices, how does it make you feel subconsciously or consciously, and you’ve got to, you’ve got to steer yourself through that. I mean, there’s no solution for playground politics or even corporate politics, but, but I think, some of the things that you’re describing would obviously help navigate that in some way. And for people to be a bit more aware have there been sort of specific, I guess. ways in which you’ve helped people understand that and, and being, more confident going into social settings or, Around self awareness, but also around the awareness of environment in some way.

Joel Hines: 13:27
Yeah. So I think there’s, there’s probably a few examples. I like if I bring a teenage example, I remember running a workshop with some teenage boys at that particular time. And we did like a sharing circle on their challenges. What was, what were the challenges were they facing at that time? And what was really interesting is like they, they all like once one person kind of. Had the the the courage to kind of share their story. It really opened up the rest of them to do the same. It was almost like someone had to kind of pull the plug and and make it all happen. But then once it did, like everyone felt that sort of sense of safety to do so themselves. And it was interesting after the that sort of part of it, we did a little debrief on what the experience was like for them. What did they sort of take from what they enjoy? And and there was a few comments of like, Oh, I really didn’t know that that that was going on for that person. Now I, I feel the same way, like, and I don’t feel so alone anymore. That that was sort of probably a big part of it, that sort of sense of, this story that I had in my own mind that was going on and on and on. I was thinking this is only me that ever experienced this and to hear someone else that I’m, going to school with that has that same thing was such a liberating thing for the other thing that came out of that debrief, though, was like, The learning that happened through that experience. So one, one boy sort of basically shared that and he said, look, through that experience, I really understand what empathy is now. Like, I’ve been told what it is, and I’ve been told the definition, they’ve been teaching us about it, that I really felt it today. Like I really felt this sense of empathy and now I know what it means. And so for me, it was almost like, just by the conversation that was having in the stories that were shared, they were able to learn something about themselves and each other as well. And be able to put like a name to that feeling that they have. Hmm.

Chris Hudson: 15:14
When, I mean, when do you think in the context of work, maybe now, but when do you think is the right time to have these sorts of conversations because it doesn’t just kind of pop into the agenda. Halfway through before the tea break, you’ve got, you’ve got to actually, you’ve got to design and, you want to say I was a designer, you’re a designer as well, facilitator, but you always got to design the conditions for how that can work and play out in a way that feels right. It would be a little bit unexpected and maybe, a bit confrontational for some people if they weren’t expecting to get into something that deep one day that was happening. So how do you, when would be the right point and how would that, how would that be set up in the right way? Do you think?

Joel Hines: 15:52
Yeah, I think for me, it was always part of, part of my process, I suppose, to do what, what, the tool that we call a check in, and, and checking in can be, like if you use the analogy of going on a flight, sometimes, you’ve only got hand luggage and there’s only a little bit to carry. You don’t need to check anything in. Sometimes you’ve got, two big bags and a big cardboard box and all the rest of it. And there’s a lot of stuff that you got to check in. And so your level of check in can be different in many ways, but I’m a firm advocate of connection before content. And so that’s in a meeting that’s in a presentation that’s in a workshop that I run. How can we, break down those barriers and give people that sort of sense of safety and trust to actually share, where they’re at and what’s going on. The two things that I find that work really well for that are story and play. And so, like I said in the example with the teenage boys, someone always has to go first. So if you’re the leader or you’re the facilitator, perhaps it’s up to you to go first. Right. And actually just share. Look, this is where I’m at right now. I’ve got some stuff going on at home or, my parents are a little bit unwell at the moment. Like, just giving a little bit of yourself. You would be amazed at how much permission, safety and trust that creates for other people to go. Oh, if they’ve done it, I can do it too. The other one is play. Right? So like, how can you have like a bit of fun or a bit of play to break that sort of sense of uncomfortableness, and naming that uncomfortableness sort of say, Hey, look, this might feel a bit weird. This might be a little strange, but I want to try something new, would you be willing to give it a go? And it’s always invitational. We have a term that I’ve used often called challenge by choice, so challenging or inviting people to do something, but always making sure they’ve got a choice in order to. How much they want to step in. You can bring in both elements at the same time, right? If you were a piece of fruit right now, Chris, what would you feel like and you might say? Oh, I feel like a strawberry today, because I’m a bit kind of

Chris Hudson: 17:48
Hey, I was gonna say strawberry actually, I thought there you go

Joel Hines: 17:51
Yeah, yeah, but like, it can be a little bit light and fun and I think with these things Like everything, when it’s uncomfortable to begin with, it’s like, more practice we get, the better we get at it. And. The easier it becomes, it’s like going to the gym. If you go to, if you’ve ever been to the gym and you haven’t been for a while, you kind of wake up a bit sore the next day and maybe the day after. But if you keep going back, like that soreness doesn’t get, it’s not quite as great every single time. So it’s the same with this kind of stuff. When we talk about social emotional things, we’ve got to start small. We’ve got to practice often. And we get a familiarity and a fitness to actually sort of speaking about this stuff. So I guess that that’s how I would bring it in if I was stepping into a new organisation and, in a leadership position or whatever, it wouldn’t be the first thing I do, but like the first thing I would do is just like try and extract a little bit of stories and by sharing my own. This is where I’ve come from. This is what I’m about. This is what I do on weekends, like just those little benign things sometimes that we think, Oh, no one would be interested in that. We, we find connections through the smallest of conversations. There’s, there’s a couple of icebreakers that I run quite often in workshops where it’s just a one minute conversation about a particular topic and people, like I asked the question, hands up if you learned something new about someone. And all the hands go up after one minute of conversation, just a story in one minute can open the doorway, the pathway to connection. Like you wouldn’t, you wouldn’t think it’s possible, but it really is incredible what it can do.

Chris Hudson: 19:25
And I mean, in running that exercise and in different groups, I suppose I’m considering, probably more, more progressive teams more diverse teams and then the ones that are probably, more traditional, right. You’re alpha male kind of guys that probably wouldn’t be used to having this conversation. How are you seeing some of those different groups work uh, differently from one another?

Joel Hines: 19:47
I think the practice for me would be the same the persistence and the consistency is, is probably the two things, if it doesn’t work once, it doesn’t mean you don’t try it again, like, and it’s like, sometimes it takes a while for these things to, to take hold and if I liken it, or if I use the analogy back to teenagers, I remember running this mentoring program that went for 18 weeks, right? And we paired up men from the community of a whole different bunch of ages, like from 19 to 82, I think they were with a bunch of teenagers that were, at risk of sort of disengagement from school and those sorts of things. The first thing we did every week was a check-in. It was like, how’s your week been? How are you going at the moment? It took 12 weeks for this one particular boy to actually say, oh yeah. Good, thanks. Like to actually just name how he was feeling in two or three words. So like just the persistence of having that there as an opportunity, again, it’s invitational. It’s like, here’s, here’s something for you. If you want to take it, you know, grab it. But if not, that’s okay too. And without judgment, I think that’s a big part of it is like, you know, sometimes we can feel forced into things or expected to do things, if, if this kind of process is done with intention, but also with that choice element in it and the agency piece, it can be even more powerful.

Chris Hudson: 21:10
Yeah. I think, I mean, the difference between a school educational environment or just a social one and the workplace is that obviously at the workplace you’re getting paid. So, people are expecting you to show up and, and actually contribute and, we talked about this in a previous episode with Berlin you may have heard that. Basically, everyone’s expected to have a voice, you’re, you’re, you’re feeling that, and it’s almost like the pressure is on some people more comfortable with that, and others, other people would rather just observe They can be judged for that. I feel like there’s a lot of judgment in that sense that creeps in because you’re, you’re either judged or not taking part in one way because it’s learned behaviours to, to assume that the people in the, the loudest in the room, the highest paid and the biggest opinions and all the stuff that goes with it. Yeah, we accept that’s part of business and maybe that needs to change. You have a point of view around that?

Joel Hines: 22:02
Yeah, I think like that point that you’re sort of saying, like, if, if there’s people that are resistant to be a part of it, to me, that says they’re not feeling safe, like they’re not feeling safe in that environment to share a piece of themselves or even just sort of, to be honest, they, they, but we’re back to that belonging piece of wanting to fit in. Right. So I don’t want to say anything to get, get me this way or that way. So, I just won’t say anything at all. So if that’s the case, it’s a nice cue, right? Like it’s a cue to sort of say, right, what am I doing in this situation? How am I showing up? Whether you’re the leader or whether you’re just a co worker, like what can I do that’s actually going to make any difference to someone else? So safety and trust take time and we’ve got a, Like I said before, like do this, regularly, more often in order to open the doorway. But also like there’s an opportunity that some people don’t like to talk in public, like they don’t feel comfortable doing that, and that’s maybe from conditioning from their childhood or maybe that’s they’ve had a bad experience or maybe they’re just shy and they don’t, they don’t want to. I think, removing that judgment piece is a really big one. And as I said, like teenagers have that fear of judgment. We as adults have that. That there’s that fear of being judged, all the time, sometimes, we, we won’t put stuff out on, on our social media and things because we fear that people might sort of tear it apart or we fear having an opinion on something because someone will sort of say, Oh, that’s not right. And, like, being judged for it. The more that I guess we, we share our own experience openly and authentically and be true to that. Like, I think that’s a good thing. The other thing is like, if someone doesn’t want to share, that’s a clarity of boundary for them too. Like they’ve been clear on their boundary that they, they don’t want that. And I think when we feel like our boundaries are being crossed, we sort of pushed back even further on. So the wall can kind of go up, a lot sort of stronger. So again, it’s a clear sign that people aren’t feeling that sort of safety. It’s like they’re feeling like their, their boundary is being encroached upon The caveat to all that, I guess, is to say that this concept of emotional professionalism too, so like if we’re in those environments, telling all our deepest, darkest secrets and exposing ourselves, very vulnerably may not be the best option. And that’s not what I’m sort of necessarily saying. I think there’s a difference between authenticity and vulnerability. Vulnerability sort of says that, like, we’re gonna, mention something that’s really deep and, and, scary potentially for us and puts us out there. But being authentic is just like, actually, no, I don’t agree with that. Or actually, this is what I think, and this is my experience, speaking from that eye language, that’s being authentic, doesn’t necessarily have to be vulnerable. The two can go hand in hand, but it doesn’t, it’s not like a match made in heaven that has to happen that way.

Chris Hudson: 24:46
Yeah, yeah. I mean, that’s a really good point. I think that, I think tuning in, like, you always got to fine tune your radar to be able to see the difference there. Because I don’t think it would be that obvious for, if somebody was talking to me and you about something and, are they being authentic or vulnerable, I think that would be quite blurry for some people.

Joel Hines: 25:05
Yeah.

Chris Hudson: 25:06
Like, I don’t know, I’m trying to think of examples, like recent conversations that I’ve had, but yeah, would you know the difference? I don’t know.

Joel Hines: 25:13
Yeah, well, I think it’s a good thing to think about because like, it definitely is a distinction for me. Because like when we’re breaking down some of the masculine stereotypes, there’s this idea that men need to open up more and be more vulnerable. And, and I think like there is in part some truth to that, but what we’re really saying is if they can authentically express their emotions, then that is what we’re actually after. It’s not that they have to cry which is the antithesis of what the man box says is that boys don’t cry, right? So, like, if we can break that down, what we’re really just wanting is, like, what’s actually really going on? What, how do you really feel about this? And it doesn’t necessarily mean for me that you, have to break down in tears and, and, and sort of be a complete mess. But, if you are, I will fully receive you no matter what.

Chris Hudson: 26:02
So do you think we’re, we’re kind of pointing the finger at the wrong thing there in that we’re, we’re looking, we’re looking to men to be more, emotionally available and more transparent, authentic, vulnerable, as you were saying but actually what’s behind that is something deeper, so it’s almost like, why are we, why are we saying that, if it’s anyone that’s observing men in action why, why are we trying to get them to do that? And what’s behind it. And actually it’s, it’s surfacing a lot more that would become useful. And then we’ll obviously level out the playing field, probably in terms of a working environment and a team culture in a way that wouldn’t have otherwise been, wouldn’t have otherwise been possible. So, that’s what, that’s what’s, that’s, what’s kind of springing to mind. But yeah, in terms of like the world of work and I guess the role that men are playing and the, the way in which they’re role modelling for a number of people out there, is there anything else that we haven’t talked about you think, that that also needs to change?

Joel Hines: 26:57
Well, I, I think, it’s still on the same thing, but, but that idea of role, role modelling and that authenticity is, is such a big piece. And I think what that enables I guess, in my experience has been that collaboration and that building of, of safety and trust, they’re the two things that I’ve sort of noticed. And I, I would sort of probably argue or, or put myself out there and say most, most leaders. Want the best out of their team and whatever it is that the team is working on, whether it’s their product or whether it’s, their service, whatever it might be. And in my experience, when I have like listened first and spoken last, I’ve enabled my team to sort of collaborative approach of problem or an innovation with so much more broad, scope that We, can’t help but not have an improved outcome than what we would have come if it was just one person’s, solid idea. The ability for us to bring an idea to the table and then build upon it from others. Our role as a leader quite often is to make a decision like, okay, this is the pathway that we should take. And it’s only by having that safety and trust that we’re able to actually promote an environment where people feel safe to do that. If we go back to that point around keeping our emotions in, it’s also keeping our opinions in. Like when we talk about the levels of psychological safety in an environment or in a team, it’s often if, if I feel safe to offer my opinion, even if it goes against the grain, then like, that’s where you’re going to get that, those sparks of like, juice that are really going to create that sense of innovation in a product because it’s like, Oh, we haven’t looked at it like that before. Sometimes we can have blinkers on and be in tunnel vision. I’ve certainly done that as a leader. I’ve gone right. This is all there is to think about, and this is the way that we’re going to do it. And when someone’s kind of felt safe enough to offer an alternative view, it has just changed the perspective to that point of, ah, now we’re opening up and we’re going divergent and we’ve got all these options to us. It’s not just one solution. It could be many things. And I think that’s the greatest capacity that humans have, is to collaborate together and use each other’s unique gifts together, ultimately, to bring that together to the best possible scenario.

Chris Hudson: 29:16
I think that, that sort of timing of when to do that exactly as you described it is quite hard still. It feels like, even within organisations that we work with, that, that time to diverge, time to converge on what you’re doing. Right. Is it time to basically pause and reflect, take a step back, think about other more lateral points of view or inputs that we can take. I think for innovation and obviously in product design and other areas that we work in, it’s kind of, it’s really important to do that. And it’s almost engineered in the process, but for a lot of other people that aren’t trained in this area. It can be hard to do that. It’s almost like if we take a school analogy say you’re a teacher and it’s, it’s approaching the end of the class, you’ve got a minute to go. And you’re still trying to finish the point around the thing that you’re teaching about and you’re on the board trying to demonstrate something. And somebody else’s question is a question that would, might lead to another five minutes of conversation to basically explain, but a lot of people don’t want to hang around for another five minutes in the math class. Yeah. So. It’s like, how do you know when to sort of stop and, I think in the spirit of collaboration, you want everybody’s points of view to be heard. There’s a lot of decisioning in that kind of mix that basically says, I’m going to listen to that person’s point of view. I’m going to take it into the, into the thinking and it’s becoming part of the, the rocket ship that we’re building, if we’re building that. And then another person’s point of view or opinion or input, if it’s in at the wrong time, just won’t get taken in at all. So, like, there’s quite a lot of responsibility there for steering it and, for being agreeable, open to other people’s points of view, knowing what to bring in, what not to bring in. And yeah, I mean, how, how should people manage all of that? Is it, is it a conscious thing or is it just feels quite instinctive? But what do you think?

Joel Hines: 31:03
Yeah, there’s a lot of levels in that. And I think if I take it, take a sort of moment just to step back, I think the one thing that that kind of. Stands out for me is we live in a world right now that is so complex and navigating that complexity alongside the rapidness of how we live and operate plus the rapidness of change. We have to be agile. We have to be, be able to move and what that often translates to is us just being super busy. How you going Chris? Oh yeah, I’m super busy at the moment, like I’ve got a lot on and when we’re in that mind. We’re back in that tunnel vision. We’re in that sort of mode of not being able to kind of see the bigger picture. And so I think, like, this great phrase that I often use is slow is smooth. Smooth is fast. And, like if we just take the time to slow down a little bit, we can zoom out. And get a wider perspective. Multiple perspectives are always great. They always provide us with either affirmation that yet we’re on the right track or highlight the things that perhaps we’re not doing so well, or the things that we can improve on. And I think we have to find those conscious moments to actually breathe out and actually sit back and reflect on things. A lot of the coaching clients that I’ve sort of been speaking to lately, it’s been a constant thing is like, I’ve got so much on my plate and I keep saying to them, you need to block out CEO time, you need to block out in your diary, like a couple of hours where you don’t sit at the computer. Perhaps you go for a walk, perhaps you go somewhere else. That change of perspective opens you up to so many different and broad ideas. I don’t know if you’ve had this experience, but when I’ve gone on holiday, like I go, went over to Bali once and suddenly like I’m in this new environment. I’m like, Oh, all these creative ideas started flooding in. It’s like, Oh, I’m going to do this and we’ll do that. And then like the energy of it, it was just incredible. Right. Yeah. And the same thing can happen to us and is accessible to us all the time. Nature is all around us, just going for a walk with the dog in the park. can be what we need to circuit break, all the busyness and give us that time to open up our perspective. You alluded to the fact that I’ve done a bit of work in the rites of passage space, and there are three distinct sort of phases to a rite of passage. So a rite of passage is a transformative experience. So we go into a rite of passage as one thing, and we come out another thing, and we can never go back to that thing because we’ve had this transformation thing that happens. The first step in any rite of passage is separation. Separation from the normal. So if you want to create transformation, you want something different. You’ve got to change up, the environment, the place, the conversation. That’s why I always say like for team building stuff or, innovative stuff, off sites are great. Because it actually breeds an environment where you’re not distracted by the busyness in the day to day, you’re still got that tether, right? If you can get away without technology, preferably, like, it’s incredible what can happen, the openings that can happen both from a team and a culture point of view, but also from a innovation and development perspective.

Chris Hudson: 34:13
Yeah. I mean, that’s really cool. I love rights of passage framework that you referenced there and it kind of answers one of the points or one of the questions that I was going to ask, which is, when you encounter people that have, that say they’re too busy or have a frustration with the process, I think a lot of that from what you’re saying depends on their, in that moment, their connection to something else that might be a distraction or it might be top of mind, but busyness or, computers and. Mobiles and everything else, social media, like all of that gets in the way of that. So I think it’s like, it’s setting up the conditions, obviously. But, but when you, I’ll ask the question anyway, like when you get into a situation where you can notice that either somebody is visibly uncomfortable or, feels frustrated because they’re busy and they’d rather be doing something else or they don’t see the point, these are, these are very real situations and like you can choose to ignore it if you’re a facilitator or if you’re presenting or you’re managing a discussion in a boardroom somewhere. But. What, what would be your advice in that space around managing people that, they’re quite clearly disgruntled in some way?

Joel Hines: 35:13
Yeah, yeah, This might sound a bit left field, but I think you’ll get the illustration of the point being, being a father of, of young people as well.

Chris Hudson: 35:21
Yeah. I think there’s, I mean, based on what you’re saying, I think there’s probably, and we’re talking about male behaviours in this episode a little bit. I feel like there’s a lot of masking that goes on from, from men and how they, how they present in the workplace. Obviously, if I’m with you or if I’m with people that I know present a certain way, then you might end up behaving a bit like that. This is almost a bit of a pack mentality. And you’ll have seen this through your work with teenage boys and probably in other, other situations as well. But I’m just trying to figure out, from that, how do you go, do you go with the flow basically, or do you try and steer it to something else, I think is probably the basic question there. Because fitting in is important and making sure that you feel like you’re, you’re on the same page, but you know, if you were, if you’re a woman coming into that situation, it would be really hard if, if that was an established kind of mode of behaviour and you weren’t feeling comfortable and you were having to suggest a circuit breaker when it wasn’t necessarily the right. Now, didn’t it feel like, it feels like it would jar quite, quite clearly with, the group that was there because you feel like you’re in the minority. And, and so I’m wondering from that point of view, and in, and in your experience, whether that still works and, and how you navigate different kind of group scenarios.

Joel Hines: 36:36
It took me back to, when my son was a toddler, right? And I was given this piece of parenting advice that you have like seven seconds to break the cycle, like when they’re in that kind of toddler, toddler tantrum kind of state. And like, you need some sort of circuit breaker. Right. And so with my son, he was really into the Octonauts when, when he was young. And we throw in this question when he was right in the thick of it. And we’d say, how many tools has Tweet got in his tool belt? And suddenly it’s like, stop and think and go. And suddenly he was broken out of whatever it was that he was in that endless loop with. Right. So the parallel or the kind of analogy is thus, like, so if you see someone that’s in that state, how can you circuit break with something just out of left field? and suggest something that maybe is like just ludicrous to actually break that cycle, and it, and it might be as simple as like, okay, what I want you to do is stop what you’re doing. I need you to take a half hour break, and this is what I want you to do with it. I want you to go down to the local park. I want you to take your shoes off and walk on the grass. Promise me you’re going to do that. See you in half an hour. And sometimes it’s just like those like off the cuff kind of creative ideas that break the circuit of where they’re at. That can give you the space or the separation to actually see the wood through the trees and actually then make a clear pathway through because as Humans, as adults or children, we can’t process things cognitively if we’re in a heightened emotional state, right? If we’re not regulated emotionally, like, the message doesn’t get through. It physically doesn’t get through. There’s this little thing called the amygdala, which is like a, like a door. That closes and stops the messages getting up into our cognitive brain out, up, up here in the, in the cerebrum if we’re in that heightened emotional state, it’s like that fight, flight, freeze thing that, it’s either open or it’s closed. And so if we’re in that sort of state, like there’s nothing’s going to get in, nothing’s going to work. So we need to break that circuit. The best way to do that is with something kind of just like a little bit out of left field. I guess the thing to say there, Chris, it would be nothing changes unless something changes. And so, like, if we keep, like, what’s the definition? I think it’s like, if we keep doing the same thing and expecting a different result, that’s the, definition of insanity or something like that. Yes. Like it’s, it’s that, like if you’ve tried other things and they haven’t worked, my invitation is like, try something different. And it may not always work, you’re right. It might be too jarring. It might be too left of field. But I guess the thing is, if we keep doing the same things over and over again, then the same things are going to be the results. And if we’re wanting sort of change, if we’re wanting, to build that sort of culture of innovation, trust, growth that, you’ve been talking about, for this month, we have to be able to adapt and change to our environments. And like I said before, we’re navigating such complexity and rapidly changing environments these days that we have to try different things and we have to stay on top of these things. And, and keep zooming out and zooming in that macro and micro are so important for us to stay, relevant. And, and also stay up to date, and the more time that we can spend, like I sort of said, like slowing down will actually help us speed up in my experience.

Chris Hudson: 39:56
Hmm. No, that’s really good. That’s really good. I wanted to follow on from that in terms of asking, in terms of criticism, how do we, how do we respond to that? Cause I think there’s a lot of, a lot of men blokes that, or anyone really, but, but I feel like men take criticism really badly and, and then, they’re quite, it’s unexpected sometimes and there’s a lot of, there’s a lot of heated situations that feel like they’re created because there’s an unexpected exchange, there’s a strong view and it’s quite direct or, it wasn’t, it wasn’t characteristic of that person’s personality because, they’ve caught in a bad time in, in one of those, fight, flight type moments. But, how do you, how do you deal with criticism and how should one kind of think about that differently? Do you think?

Joel Hines: 40:41
Well, I think that it, it comes back to probably sort of the start of our conversation, that self awareness piece is like, if, if you’re feeling criticised or you’re feeling sort of, activated by something that someone else has said. The first step is really to think about, why is this happening? Why is it? Why am I feeling this? Where is this coming from? What? What in me is being challenged right now? Our natural inclination is to go other, it’s them. It’s all their fault. That kind of thing. It’s like a natural response. If we can again, slow down, take a breath and actually go right. What is that is behind me? Why is this impacting me? Then we’ve got actually a place to look at it because to be honest, like we can’t control how anyone else, you know what they say, what they do. We can, we can control what we can. How we show up, how we respond. And sometimes it’s about just taking that sort of breath and thinking about self first before responding or, taking that extra step of, retaliating or, whatever it might be. And, when in thinking about that, like, having a bit of personal work, has been such a great thing for me. Like, I have learned so much about myself by actually actively spending time on developing myself and exploring some of, the things that sort of trigger me in different ways or, some of the feelings that I have and why they’re there. And I’d encourage anyone to do that, male or female or anyone else that in between. So, yeah, I think It comes back to understanding ourself and what it is, because it’s actually us that is, being impacted by that comment or that criticism. It’s also us that can control what we do with it.

Chris Hudson: 42:22
Yeah, absolutely right. I mean, I think, I think we feel the responsibility. We feel the weight sometimes that we’re carrying in those situations, and it can force a certain unnatural response. And you can obviously. You can make a fool of yourself, it happens you can laugh that off, or you can take it really personally. I love what you were saying just there around, the, the self development, and I wondered if you could maybe just expand on that point. You’ve worked with, obviously, adolescents and, and, into adulthood on, on yourself, and I’m wondering, when and how people should be taking more responsibility for themselves, or, placing more focus on their own self awareness and their own learning and development from the point of view that you were describing. So, is there anything in the way of a set of steps or like an entry point or anything like that? Some of, some of the practical things that you think have been really helpful in your journey.

Joel Hines: 43:11
Yeah, look, I, I think there’s, there’s many tools and courses and all those things out there. I think my recommendation to people would be like, if you’ve never done anything before, like, just do it. Put into a search engine, self development or, personal development or something and see what comes up and, it’s about being a little bit I guess, exploratory, being curious, but also like listening, to that intuition as well and going like, does that feel right? Or does that feel right? Like, because there are so many different options, right? You can go down breath work, you can go down yoga, you can go down mindfulness meditation, all those sorts of things you can go down. Different faiths, buddhism or hinduism or all those sorts of stuff. But at the at the end of the day, I don’t think there’s any one recipe for success. It has to mean something to you. And so personal development is personal, right? So we’ve got to bring it back to what’s actually resonating for me. When I was in my twenties, like a lot of what the Dalai Lama had to say, made sense to me. And so I followed a bit of a path of Buddhism exploration for a while there. And I got a lot from that, and that’s it and sparked inquiry into other things, so I think being just open to the possibility and seeing what comes up is a start. Maybe a safe way is also like to, get a therapist, get a counsellor or something like that and actually just explore, like I’ve been having some feelings lately and this is what it is. I’m just curious to understand more about what I think and how I feel in my experience when you start to think about it and it’s all going in around in your own mind. It’s time to actually start sharing it with someone else. So whether that’s like a trusted friend. Someone who’s, paved the pathway before a mentor a therapist, someone else, because when you speak it out, my experience has been that I’ve actually understood more about what I think by talking it out loud rather than just, be on loop around in my mind.

Chris Hudson: 45:00
Yeah, I mean, there’s some great stuff in there. I think if you flip that also from what you’re describing, there are different opportunities that will present themselves to you. But if we’re thinking about it from the point of view of, say, me or anyone else managing you or working with you within an organisational area, in your team or whatever, you want to know where people are at from that point of view too. If you had 10 people in your team in, experience design, we talk about meeting people where they’re at. Yeah. Do you kind of, you’ve got to take your thing to them and make the connection, make the join there so that you’re situating whatever it is you’ve come up with in their world. Yeah. So, so similarly, like if you, like I was saying, if you had a team of 10, you’d want to know where they’re at in their own. Journey of life in one way or another and getting to know them in the ways that you were describing earlier in the episode would really help both understand you and your place in relation to that team, but also their position and. What, what they wanted to achieve from the situation. I think if you understand people’s higher, higher motives, basically, and deeper needs and deeper values, then you can often, make that situation within work resonate. And you can also, you can also afford to a bit of flexibility. So if you’re in that really, if you’re in a really gritty kind of chat which happens a lot and you think, everything’s just going to. Everything the world’s going to end today. You can actually use some of that knowledge to link out to a bigger conversation or to take a sidestep and just say, actually, let’s just forget that for half an hour and do something else. But yeah, I mean, do you? Is there anything else that you’d want to build on that, from that point of view and or suggest, within kind of team context?

Joel Hines: 46:39
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I think like, one simple step that you can take is just like understanding everyone’s values and where they intersect. Right. Like doing a values exercises is like, I’ve done it a few times over my career and life to kind of just like check in with what’s really important to me right now. That’s the, that’s the language that I often use with teenagers, right? Like, rather than what are your values, it’s like what’s important to you. And oftentimes you can get a list of like different things. And what I often do is like a, a list of 50 or something and say, circle the top 10, right? Let’s narrow down that top 10 to your top five or your top three and kind of just like, zero in on those top three and go, why is that important to me, and then like you get an answer to that question and then ask, well, why is that important to me? And, and like ask a few why’s, why’s, I think they talk about the five why’s as being sort of a, a, a good kind of exercise to try is like, why, why, why, why? You get to the core of it and you understand it if everyone in your team does that sort of process. And you, you find that there’s a real resonance and linkage, an intersection between everyone’s values and on a particular couple of things, well, then you’ve got something to leverage as a team, say, courage, creativity and I don’t know, generosity or something where you’re top three that everyone kind of intersected on or most people intersected on. Imagine if you started meetings with that, sense of creativity had some curious questions to sort of prompt, people to think about things and we’re generous with, compliments or acknowledgements of, people’s sort of gifts and strengths that they’ve brought to the team in the last week, you’re actually like doubling down on those things that you already know are a connection point between the members of your team.

Chris Hudson: 48:25
And these are really important building blocks, I think, for inclusivity. We talked a bit about the beginning about this at the beginning of the chat, but, segregation or, thinking about inclusivity really and, and putting, Putting, putting some of these steps in place so that, the feeling and the spirit of inclusivity is there. Obviously at the start of the chat, we were talking about, segregation and I think as soon as you’ve got differences of opinion, there are ways to handle that, which would, make it okay and make it safe for those, opinions or feelings to be exchanged, but it feels like, the ways in which you’re suggesting, it’s getting to know people at a deeper level would actually help, help with that navigation. It’s quite a tricky situation. But also you have to put in the work. Like it feels like you can’t just turn up as a leader or as a manager of a team or as anyone within a team and not be aware of this, because if you’re just bringing yourself and shutting, shutting out everybody else in a sense. Then you’re not, you’re not part of the team, you’re just doing what you want to do. Yeah, and you’re trying to serve your own needs. But it feels like there’s, there’s work that needs to be done to, to get to that, to that higher plane. And if you don’t do that, then you’re, you’ll only be one type of worker. It’s kind of the key outtake for me from this conversation. But yeah, love to know your thoughts.

Joel Hines: 49:38
Yeah, definitely. I think If, if we don’t sort of share our stories and understand each other, then like we, we can’t we’re going in with assumptions, right? So, a simple thing. So like often when I do workshops, I’ll do what I call a group agreement where I ask people like, what do we need from each other in order to have the best possible workshop here today? And people will offer up their suggestions, and, and it might be like, listening or not laughing at each other or, respect, whatever. But until I ask the question, what does respect mean to you? Like that’s where we get the real, the gist of it is because respect could mean something completely different to you than it does to me. And so we need to hear each other out in terms of what those things mean. So then we can get on the same page. Because how can we have sort of an agreement of how we show up with each other? If Our levels of, of those things are different and our measures of whether we’re in or we’re out of, of alignment with that. And so I think having these conversations more and more and being open, I suppose, to differencing of opinions and respecting of differencing of opinions. Just the knowledge of having that there. Immediately makes us sort of like think about, well, how am I actually phrasing this? How am I engaging with this person with this group? Because I now know that knowledge.

Chris Hudson: 50:55
Yeah. Yeah. And I think, you don’t, it doesn’t, it doesn’t have to be just the, reserved for, I guess. Getting to know the team and understanding the people, you could apply that same technique to try and agree on, some part of the strategy or visioning, or if it’s, a set of principles that you’re using for your design process or anything like that. I mean, inviting conversation around what that particular thing means to people, I think is really. It’s a powerful tool that, you’ve got that toolkit because you can then unpack the difference of opinion and then use that to bring back together the shared understanding. And if you can facilitate that, and obviously, you, you feel empowered, but obviously everyone else respects you for that too. Definitely.

Joel Hines: 51:37
Yeah. And they feel heard. I think that’s a big thing. Like for, for all of us, we want to be heard and seen for who we are and for us to feel like we belong, which, which I, I define differently to fitting in. Right. So fitting in is like, you, you just, you’re part of the group. You’re, you’re there, but sometimes you’ll adapt your behaviours like we talked about before in order to be there. True belonging is being accepted for who you are, whether you’ve got the same opinion or difference in your opinion, you’re, you’re accepted because you bring a certain lens. To the table that contributes to the greater good of whatever our team is on about. And so like, if, if we feel that sense of belonging we, we really are able to move forward and understand each other a lot more.

Chris Hudson: 52:18
Hmm. I think there’s, there’s a lot, obviously in the chat today that, I’ve really enjoyed the conversation around, almost putting, we did obviously bring up the subject of inclusivity and male modelling within the workplace. And looking deeper than that, but also bringing together some of the core values and principles that we can take into, into the world of work in knowing ourselves every day, but also in, in representing ourselves, but also representing and hearing the needs of other people and bringing those, that shared understanding together. It feels like it’s an incredible opportunity for a lot of people out there, irrespective of gender or race or anything, anything else. I think there’s just a lot there that I feel a lot of people from, from listening to this conversation will really benefit from. So really appreciate, appreciate you coming onto the show, Joel. And I wanted to end with a quote, which I saw on your website actually, and I wanted to just share it with the listeners as well but the quote was just amazing. I’ve never seen a testimonial so, so strongly, but passionately worded, and I just wanted to share it with the group. So it says, I trust Joel Hines, my life. That’s not a sentence I say very often or very willingly, but it seems fitting I begin with this truth. It just so happens I also had the pleasure of working alongside Hinesy at an organisation the Man Cave for a few years, and I picked out a few insights that might entice you to invest your time with this man. Hinesy is a storyteller who has the rare ability to open hearts and capture imaginations. He has the depth and range to weave folklore with philosophy, psychology with poetry, and quick witted humour with unshakable truth. So I, I just thought I’d finish with that. I mean, Joel, I feel extremely privileged to have had you on the show as a guest. And yeah, thank you so much for pouring your wisdom and points of view and, expertise into the Company Road podcast and for the listeners out there. So so much.

Joel Hines: 54:03
It’s a pleasure, Chris. And yeah, I really appreciate the really deep questions that you ask. Really, it got me stimulated and thinking like, so like, I really appreciate the time you’ve obviously taken to sort of think about things, but how you sort of process and then come back with a really interesting question and curious question. I love that curiosity. So yeah, I really just want to just say I really acknowledge and appreciate that. Thank you.

Chris Hudson: 54:25
And for people that want to get in touch and maybe tell us about your book as well, a little bit, which I think is just launching. So how would people find out about you? See, see more or ask a question.

Joel Hines: 54:35
Yeah, like the main site, my website, beinghuman.net.au is probably the easiest place for people to find everything from the book to, getting in contact. But I’m on LinkedIn as well and Instagram and Facebook and all those things as well. So yeah, feel free to reach out. I’m always happy just to have conversations with people and just chat about various things. I think like you’re right, we’ve covered a lot in this conversation. And so there’s many things to, to potentially unpack with people if they wanted to reach out more than happy to have a conversation and, chat further about anything we’ve talked about. Thank you.

Chris Hudson: 55:07
Wonderful. Thanks so much, Joel. Appreciate your time and we’ll stop there. Thank you.

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