The untoxicated path: Altering the course of drinking culture
“So I just thought, no. I don’t accept the narrative around sobriety. I don’t accept that drinkers are boring. I don’t accept that people can’t have fun without alcohol. I just don’t accept any of these things.”
Faye Lawrence
In this episode you’ll hear about
- Faye’s journey to sobriety: Faye details her personal story from heavy-drinker to alcohol-free, including the barriers she faced, her turning point and the differences in her life since sobriety.
- Workplace drinking culture and breaking the stigma of sobriety: Why a culture of alcohol is so prevalent within business and what we can do to establish a healthier, more inclusive social work culture
- Techniques for sobriety: Key strategies for trying to work toward and navigate sobriety, including the all-or-nothing approach, getting curious about one’s experiences with alcohol, focusing on gains, and regulating the nervous system.
- Developing a growth mindset: How to become comfortable with discomfort, learn the power of the pause and take control over the decisions you make to see personal growth and self-discovery in your life
- Unlocking productivity: Tips to step into greater levels of productivity and satisfaction at work rooted in understanding yourself and having power over your actions and decision-making
Key links
About our guest
Having been a heavy but high functioning drinker since her teens, Faye Lawrence wound up in inpatient detox in 2017 after realising the party wasn’t any fun anymore. Determined not to let her sobriety ruin her social life she founded Untoxicated, now Australia’s largest alcohol-free social community.
She is a TEDx + SXSW speaker and has featured widely across media with a mission to normalise living with less or no alcohol in a culture that reveres it. Since her ADHD diagnosis in 2022, she’s been telling anyone who’ll listen about the strong link between ADHD and all types of addiction.
She’s proud to serve on the SMART Recovery Board and is a trained facilitator. And in true ADHD ‘portfolio career’ style, she also has extensive experience in marketing, communications, and engagement, predominantly in for purpose organisations.
About our host
Our host, Chris Hudson, is a Teacher, Experience Designer and Founder of business transformation coaching and consultancy Company Road.
Company Road was founded by Chris Hudson, who saw over-niching and specialisation within corporates as a significant barrier to change.
Every team approaches transformation in their own way, also bringing in their own partners to help. And while they’re working towards the same organisational goal, it’s this over-fragmentation that stunts rapid progress at a company-wide level.
Having worked as a marketer, transformation leader, teacher and practitioner of design thinking for over 20 years, both here in Australia and internationally, Chris brings a unique, deep and ‘blended’ skillset that will cohere and enable your teams to deliver ambitious and complex change programs.
Transcript
Chris Hudson: Hello everyone, and welcome back to the next episode of the Company Road podcast and I wanted to start today’s session with a bit of a short reflection on one of the previous podcast episodes, episode 14 where we were joined by Ollie Lynch.
Ollie and I took a bit of a look into the stigma surrounding abstinence in alcohol and drug addiction specifically around the things that one experiences probably when it’s too late, they realise that obviously there’s something to be done. Despite all that he’d had an amazingly successful career run.
But even through that time, he was struggling with the addiction to the point that it was really eating him up. And he found himself in rehab in his late twenties and was kind enough to talk to us about his story and his road to recovery. And it was really an incredible story for me to hear about personally.
I took the decision two and a half years ago or so to go sober as well. But his story was one of personal vulnerability, resilience, and determination and it actually opened up many of our listeners eyes and ears to some of the detrimental influences that are simply normalised in the world of work and life more generally today. So moving from discussing addiction at a very individual level at that point, today we’re going to talk to somebody who’s a really positive force for change in this area also at a community level. And I’m very excited to welcome Faye Lawrence, founder of Untoxicated, to the show particularly as we’ll be in the throes of the festive season when this show drops.
So welcome, Faye.
[00:01:19] Faye Lawrence: Hi, Chris, thanks so much for having me on. What a wonderful intro.
[00:01:22] Chris Hudson: Thank you. And Faye you’re an accomplished professional, you were talking at South by Southwest earlier in the year in Sydney and you’ve given a TEDx talk, and you’ve been on most of the Australian TV channels, from what I can gather featuring widely across national media, and, you’re talking about this mission, right?
The mission to normalise living with less or no alcohol in a culture that pretty much applauds it, reveres it, celebrates it. There’s always a reason to drink. Before we dissect the world of fun in the workplace and what’s driving some of those harmful behaviours, I want to start with that mission, really, if we can hear about how it all came about and maybe we’ll jump into the chat after that.
[00:01:57] Faye Lawrence: So I’d always been a massive boozer coming from the UK, which I’m sure you’re well familiar with. Chris, there’s a big alcohol culture over there and there is, over in Australia as well. And in my family, there were a lot of ideas that you sort of inherit from your family environment as well.
So there was a lot of, alcohol at every family get together. There was addiction on both sides of my family, both drugs and alcohol but high functioning for the most part. It was just the sort of way that was modelled, I guess, both in a cultural and familial context and later an organisational one in an employment context as well about the role of alcohol.
It was just a given. I mean, I never in a million years, I thought I’d be a non drinker at some stage, certainly the narrative was around ‘we don’t trust people that don’t drink. They’re so boring and, what’s wrong with them and all the rest of it. That was a real impediment for me.
Fast forward, to my 40s, when I had the corporate career, which had been, very much laden with the alcohol as well. I’d raised my kids, I’d been studying psych, I’d been doing all the things. And then I reached a point and I’ve been high functioning throughout that whole period, even though alcohol had been an issue for a long time.
And thought though of how I would operate in the world without it was just so flummoxing and terrifying to me because in every domain of my life it was so integral and and a big part of that was my social identity. The research shows that for people who do make shifts in their alcohol or drug use, the social identity piece is really huge in whether they’re able to maintain those changes. That’s because you need to shift from the past to the new. That’s really difficult when you’ve got nothing to go off. You haven’t got people around you that you know that don’t drink and party. You haven’t got friends that, are in that same boat. So you’re throwing yourself into the abyss, the unknown of ah, what’s my life going to be like?
And that’s problematic because even if these are changes that you know that you need to make, when you can’t imagine them and when they don’t seem appealing or appetising, they just seem like a sort of form of purgatory of, Oh God, you know, I’m, going from what I’ve got now, which is social connection and fun and things to look forward to.
And this is what you’re saying to yourself to oh god. Okay, I know I need to give up, or I’m drinking too much, but I’ve gonna have to stay at home all the time, and there’s gonna be no fun and there’s gonna be, you know, it’s gonna be boring. People won’t invite me anywhere.
What am I gonna do at the Christmas party? What am I gonna do? Like, how’s this gonna work? I don’t want this. And so that was so much a part of it for me that when I tried to make changes in the lead up to when I finally did stop drinking, I’d always lapse back because I’d be like the only other option is staying at home, doing nothing all the time.
And that wasn’t true, but that was all that I could envisage and that I knew was an option. It was really important for me when I stopped and realised that I was going to have to start socialising with my existing friendship groups in a very different way.
But also, I’ve always been a bit of a rebel and when you tell me I can’t do something, I’m gonna do it. So I just thought, no. I don’t accept the narrative around sobriety. I don’t accept that drinkers are boring. I don’t accept that people can’t have fun without alcohol. I just don’t accept any of these things.
Who decided? And so I started Untoxicated because basically it was what I needed. And I needed some friends that didn’t drink. And Untoxicated was really just started out as a small meetup group in Brisbane. And it was really just to get together on Friday and Saturday night with people to go out for dinner.
No one had to identify as anything in particular. You could still be drinking, you just have a night off. Or you’re training for a marathon or whatever it is and you just get the opportunity to catch up, go out and do something without alcohol. That in terms of the social identity piece starts, for me it was necessary but not everyone’s at the level that I was in terms of the alcohol side of it.
I did go into inpatient detox myself but for people that aren’t at that level of alcohol use disorder, you can’t be what you can’t see. So when people would come along to Untoxicated get togethers, which then shifted into Brisbane, Sydney and Melbourne.
They could see other people like them. They could see other people like them, but it wasn’t like your typical sort of AA type of scenario, not dissing AA, it was, oh, so there’s other people like me who are also dipping a toe in this pond. I’m not the only one. And these are people who, work in the same sort of spaces that I do.
They’ve got families, they’ve got mortgages, all the rest of it. And that was much more appetising, I’m not sure if appetising is the right word, but it reduced barriers to entry. Because you didn’t have to take on any kind of deficiency or label, it was just come along and have fun without alcohol. That’s how it all started was really through my own journey, lack of options cause there was nothing at that time.
And I created what I needed really.
[00:07:34] Chris Hudson: Oh it’s amazing. There’s probably some numbers around the success that you’ve had that, in terms of number of people that have done this or that, or number of parties that go without alcohol now because of, I don’t know, there, there might be something that you wanted to share.
[00:07:45] Faye Lawrence: Well, I mean anecdotally I’ve seen a huge, so it’s actually my six year soberversary today.
[00:07:52] Chris Hudson: Oh, wow.
[00:07:53] Faye Lawrence: yeah,
[00:07:54] Chris Hudson: Congratulations.
[00:07:56] Faye Lawrence: Thank you.
And I’ve certainly seen big shifts in the time that been on this path. It was really something that people didn’t talk about openly that much, you know, And we’ve seen this sort of explosion in alcohol free options for people, beers and all sorts in the supermarkets and when you go out to venues. There’s a sober curious movement mindful drinking. People are becoming a lot more aware of the health implications as well with things like the Huberman Lab podcast. And so what you’re seeing is people are making the decision to change the relationship with alcohol, which might not necessarily mean cutting out entirely much earlier because there are options to do so, because what we know is that, there’s a huge amount of shame and stigma and pressure if you choose to not to drink and equally, if you’ve given up because you’ve got a problem, you’re kind of damned if you do and damned if you don’t.
There’s that pressure to drink. And then there’s equally the disapproval if you don’t drink. So it’s really hard for people that are struggling or not wanting to. Because the research shows they basically either give in and relapse or they stay at home.
[00:09:15] Chris Hudson: It’s difficult to know where to start with it all and where it all started and how it all starts. And I think everyone has their own story, in relation to their teenage years, their influence. And then work is a massive driving factor. Like the work culture that you start within.
And I remember this from London days. It was expected that even if I was on a work placement at the age of 16 in a law firm somewhere in the city in London and it was a very serious job, by and large, and then you’re doing work drinks at the end of the day or even at lunchtime but it was just expected that you would drink.
And if you, even if you had a half pint instead of a pint, somebody would make a comment about that.
[00:09:48] Faye Lawrence: Absolutely My first job was at the Daily Mirror. I was at Mirror Group Newspapers in Holborn Circus. I was 16. This is back in the Maxwell days. God, I’m showing my age now. But it just goes to show how that cultural shift can happen. Because I remember back then everyone was smoking in the offices, all the directors and the old blokes with their cigars, and they’d come in and that was such a boozy culture.
They’d come in at 11 and they’d literally have a couple of cigars and then they were out to the pub and that was just what people did, especially if they were senior back then. And, fast forward to a few years later, I was working for one of the big four in London and we’d go out and get, especially at the end of particular business cycles and things like that day drinking sessions and all sorts and that continued to my forties.
[00:10:43] Chris Hudson: Yeah, I mean it’s considered one of the perks like it’s one of the things that you you know We just got used to having around. I remember I started my career in advertising and marketing In most of the agencies that I worked in there was a bar downstairs or there was a drinks trolley coming around and if somebody won this piece of work on a pitch, there’d be a celebration and everyone would stop their work and there’d be champagne and it’s just all tied in, right?
So that’s one part. But then there’s also the other part, which I think is around. And I suppose the peer to peer nature of it in that if somebody else is staying for another drink, then you’ll probably stay with them. And you’re always pushing yourself to consume more and more, it feels, and that goes through the different stages of your life, but not only do you feel like you can drink more and you want to drink more, you’re in the situation where, you’re not getting as much out of it unless you do drink more, and then you feel worse and worse through the years as well, because obviously hangover has become a much more real thing, and then, oh, I just found myself wondering why I was doing it, really.
[00:11:37] Faye Lawrence: Yeah. agree.
[00:11:38] Chris Hudson: One of these things you pretend to enjoy, really look forward to, and like you were saying, like it’s in every walk of your life, and you’re wondering about which days you can or shouldn’t drink on there’s occasions that come up, that can be family occasions, work occasions, you’re thinking, oh, what are we going to take, what are we going to drink, it’s all part of the same discussion and all of a sudden you feel like it’s part of every part of your being.
[00:11:57] Faye Lawrence: And that’s cause it is. And I’ve never taken an anti alcohol approach. I think that people should have autonomy over their own bodies. but you know, the reality is that the odds are stacked. We’re aggressively marketed to, the alcohol companies have got a huge amount of money and sway. There’s a lot of profit at stake here, just like there was with cigarettes. We are essentially animals, really, you’d know this from appetising and certainly from a sort of psych perspective. And so things like rituals and the in groups and out groups, that’s part of the way that we bond as humans and we know our people, and when you are threatening that with something different, it is hard for people because this is gonna change our relationship, number one, but also you are no longer the same. And that’s a threat to the group really from a primal perspective you know, and certainly I was one of those people that pressured everybody else because it could enable pressured everybody else because, it was because it could enable me to continue partying.
[00:13:11] Chris Hudson: And it was in it was definitely in every team leader’s repertoire would be to you know buy the round of drinks and get everyone a bit merry before they went off on their weekend or arrange a party or an event or something that took them out of work early and got them drinking or whatever it was.
[00:13:25] Faye Lawrence: And it still is in certain industries as well. I mean, I have clients, I work with people now. Most of my clients are entrepreneurs or the professional senior leaders or creatives. And in certain industries, it’s definitely, still quite part of the organisational culture. I think also in certain industries, you know, there’s sort of like that, Bukowski-esque glamour of the rebel and the link with sort of the creativity and that type of thing as well.
So it’s, it is pretty laden and complex, isn’t it? When you start looking at the various layers that actually are inherent in why we do drink the way that we do.
[00:14:08] Chris Hudson: Yeah. I mean I’m also thinking as you’re talking, I’m thinking about what it takes for somebody to step away from that bubble and actually survive out- You’re kind of in the wild, right? You’re finding out about yourself, you’re going through the steps of dealing with it, you’re always wondering whether you’d be better off with it still.
Certainly that was my experience for the first little while and it’s just everywhere you see, you can’t avoid it, you’re watching TV, you’re watching Netflix, there are references to it people that you’re meeting at your kid’s event at 9am on a Saturday are talking about what’s going to happen in the afternoon and the fact they have to go and get some wine or, it’s just always there, so what are some of the techniques that you think really help in that respect?
[00:14:45] Faye Lawrence: Alcohol is the drug that causes the most harm. It causes three times more harm than all illicit drugs combined in Queensland, at least. It’s just so interesting how we view these things in a very different light because we wouldn’t to somebody who was trying to change their behaviour with other types of drugs, for example, They certainly wouldn’t face the same omnipresent barrage of challenges, they’d have their own challenges as well, but it’s that sort of subculture when it comes to drugs, isn’t it? Whereas this is the prevailing culture and It’s incessant. It’s everywhere you go. Every time you turn on the TV, every time you go to the movies, you can’t exactly like you say, you can’t escape it.
What I would say to people is, there’s no one particular technique. Ultimately you’re training your brain. There’s a big part of it where you’re training your brain and you’re learning to self regulate. When When we have really strong associations in the brain, because we may have been drinking for three decades or something, that takes time to create new neural pathways and we’ve got to show the brain evidence because it hasn’t previously got that and then it’s going to get easier. I’ve just done a post this morning about a particular race day and how I didn’t even know it was that particular day until it was the day and I could see people because there was no recognition for me, whereas that would always been like a highlight of the social calendar for the year so you never think it’s going to be possible, but it is. It just takes time. And the problem is when people don’t have that sort of terms of reference to grab on to, to go, yeah, one day, this is going to be easy one day, I’m not even going to think about it anymore.
It’s very hard for them when they’re getting, come to this party or we’re all that, you know, because they feel like they’re missing out. So I think it’s a few things. It’s about shifting to a growth mindset. So by that, not something all new age and awful. What am I gaining? Not what am I, what’s the loss?
And also really getting curious. So even if you do decide to keep on drinking, you mentioned there, Chris, about you noticing that you didn’t really want to stay for another one, but you felt like you had to. And then going why am I doing this then? Like, I’m not really enjoying this or I might be enjoying the first couple of hours, but I’m not really enjoying what comes next or the aftermath the next day or whatever it is. So if we can start getting curious with ourselves without judgment and actually observing okay, out of this experience when I have a big night out, say, or even if I just go out to dinner with friends. What’s my experience? Certainly to the point where you’ve had about three drinks, then it goes out the window, but.
How much of this am I actually enjoying? How much of this is what I’d built up in my mind that it was going to be? The fun, the reward, the relaxation. And that includes the next day as well, sometimes even the next couple of days. Because it’s all a cost benefit. It’s all how much of my life am I willing to trade for this experience? So that’s a big part of it as well. Knowing that you’re training your brain, understanding why you want to do it, is also a massive, so you can keep looking back to the reason you want to make these changes in the first place. Focusing on what you’re gaining straight away. You’ll notice that quite quickly you are gaining stuff. Learning to regulate your nervous system is a big one
[00:18:22] Chris Hudson: Yeah.
[00:18:23] Faye Lawrence: because we’ve used the alcohol at the end of the day or to manage stress or the witching hour with the kids or whatever. We often haven’t built up any healthy ways of coping with that. It’s a number of things, but also the power of the pause is always
[00:18:37] Chris Hudson: The power of the pause.
[00:18:38] Faye Lawrence: The power of the pause is also, hugely, hugely important to try and delay gratification.
[00:18:46] Chris Hudson: So you look forward to something, but you have to wait for it.
[00:18:48] Faye Lawrence: For me I use this for the ADHD side of things as well. It’s getting through for the early days where you do get, strong cravings and urges because of those associations that I spoke about. It’s learning to either. be with it, which is called urge surfing. It’s a form of mindfulness.
[00:19:07] Chris Hudson: Yeah.
[00:19:07] Faye Lawrence: Or park it. So you’re not making a decision. It’s a bit like when you get that email and you want to fire something off and you’re like, no park it. Whether that’s for a few hours, whether it’s a 24 hours. park it, come back to it tomorrow in 24 hours time. So I would make a kind of rule with myself.
I’ll check in with myself again tomorrow and see if I really want to drink.
[00:19:34] Chris Hudson: Yeah, yeah.
[00:19:34] Faye Lawrence: It was always passed by then.
[00:19:36] Chris Hudson: There’s definitely a technique in that around steadying the mind where you, if you’ve got a scatterbrain monkey brain as they call it and there’s so much in your head that you can’t even work with that much in your head, but there’s so much in it that you feel like, I can’t go to sleep, people have this with insomnia as well, but it’s figuring out what the time would be for that particular thought or that particular theme of something to be addressed. And if you can time box it and say, I always do this at 10 a. m. the next day, then you know that time’s coming up and you can just immediately relieve your brain from having to process it in that moment as well. It’s a useful technique for sure for quietening the mind.
And a quiet mind is a rare thing these days, isn’t it?
[00:20:11] Faye Lawrence: Especially with a neurodivergent brain which for me, is a massive issue and a lot of my clients are getting diagnosed as well. Or they come back to me like six months later and go, Oh, guess what? And that you, you know, you speak there about the sleep issues. I mean, that’s a very real thing.
So that’s, that’s also thinking about what is the role that alcohol is filling for you? Because until you’re able to put something else in there, because it’s not just about the taking away, it’s about alcohol’s meeting a need. It’s giving you something and if you want to remove it, you’ve got to put something else.
So we spoke about the self regulation piece, but it might be something else. It might be the reward. It might be the relaxation. It might be the social connection, whatever it is for you. So it’s thinking about that and going how can I get that met in other ways?
[00:21:08] Chris Hudson: Yeah, I think so. I mean that, that’s an interesting area to maybe think about is the bridging between one world and the other because yeah I’m not sure how it works for you, but I had to just stop and, you know, we did three months and then, oh, this is okay, we’ll do another six, we’ll do another three months.
After six months, we tried a bit of wine, tastes disgusting, we’re not going to do that again. It was just hot or cold and then it was off. And it was still in our thoughts, but we weren’t doing it. But I think for a lot of people, they’re wondering, how in that moment.
And it is back to brain training probably how to actually reconsider the options there and is there an option and the easiest thing is just to pick up the mantle and obviously go with what you know, and you’re back into the old habits. So, it’s a hard one to break away from.
[00:21:47] Faye Lawrence: It really is, yeah. And it’s the same with smoking in many respects, except smoking is now, frowned upon and that has shifted considerably over the last number of decades. You’ve got to want it really for a lot of people, which is why it’s so important to really have a solid reason around why you want to do it because behavioural change is hard, not just with alcohol, with anything, so I think for some people that all or nothing approach is not helpful. For some it is, for me it was because if I had any wriggle room. I was going to take it.
[00:22:21] Chris Hudson: You’d found a way.
[00:22:22] Faye Lawrence: I’d find a way because part of, the people that I work with, it’s called grey area drinking coaching.
And that is because we’ve got this narrative that you’re either a, a fine drinker, you’re fine, or you’re the brown paper bag on the park bench kind of drinker. And the reality is that most people. are sitting in the middle, and they’re the ones like I was, which is high functioning. And sounds like you were as well, Chris. That’s a very hard space to be in many respects, because you’re constantly negotiating with yourself about what’s an acceptable, oh no, we’re only going to drink on the weekends, or oh we’re, whatever the rules are this week. And it’s exhausting trying to find ways, new ways to make it work and have a different outcome this time.
I’m only having vodka now because I can, you know, or whatever it is. For me, it was easier just to, personally, than trying to moderate and continually failing. Continually! Like, God! To go no.
[00:23:24] Chris Hudson: You see this in the world of work as well. Like it was apparent to me that although the majority of people, as you think, when an election comes up, you think, everyone around you and everyone’s like minded and everyone’s drinking, having a good time. And that’s what everyone does.
But actually. if you open up your eyes more broadly, there’s evidence of other people within the business landscape, people within your social circles that wouldn’t be doing it to the same extent probably. I remember being really pleasantly surprised by people that were coming into one of the larger consultancies that I was working in and they were in their early 20s, like incredibly ambitious very smart. New to the workforce. They just had a different attitude, different relationship with alcohol. It wasn’t something that was driving them. They might have one or two here or there, but they were very deliberate about how they were doing it. And we can close our eyes to a lot of that in the way that there are positive reinforcements of, other ways of doing things, but actually we can usually find the answer to the thing that we’re looking for as well.
If you’re looking for somebody to go for a boozy lunch with, you’ll find them. If you’re looking for somebody to spend, the lunch with going to gallery or doing something else, you’ll find that too. It feels like it’s a bit of a self fulfilling prophecy and you’ve got it in your head as to what you think you want and what it will take to, to trigger that emotional response and to feel fulfilled.
But actually, you could rewire yourself from what you’re saying.
[00:24:41] Faye Lawrence: You absolutely can. And I think that’s a really valid point that you make there. I think that people who, A, I think the younger people and the data shows are not drinking anywhere near as much as their parents. I’ve got two kids in their twenties and they don’t really drink. That might be as a result of having me as their mother, quite possibly, but, they’re not big drinkers and the data does show that their generation down on big drinkers, it’s the 40s and 50s and 60s that are the big drinkers and water sinks its own level.
We are attracted, or birds of a feather flock together, however you want to put it, we do. And it was so surprising to me when I first started hosting the Untoxicated stuff, because our events aren’t big, we’ve probably got about 20 people, 15 people that come for each time for the things that we do.
It’s not designed to be like a big party or anything like that. So it’s just a get together and I’d meet people that just didn’t really ever like it.
How does that work? They just stop at one or two. Just doesn’t really float my boat. And then there were other people and for a whole raft of other reasons.
And I was like, wow, I never knew there were so many out there I never knew
[00:25:56] Chris Hudson: Yeah.
[00:25:56] Faye Lawrence: weren’t really into not drinking like, not to the degree, you know, they could kind of take it or leave it or they were sort of, you know, they might have the odd night out, and for a whole raft of reasons. So that was a real eye opener to me, because that was just not something that had really registered to me before, that actually there were other people that didn’t drink like I did. I knew they were there, but I didn’t realise there were so many of them.
[00:26:21] Chris Hudson: Yeah.
[00:26:22] Faye Lawrence: Didn’t compute. So yeah how did you find it then? How did you keep going and persevering when it got challenging for you Chris?
[00:26:30] Chris Hudson: My wife and I were both doing it at the same time and that really helped and having kids also helped, we made a decision that actually, if the kids are around us, we, not going to mention any names, but there are a lot of parents out there that were drinking way too much, through the days, through the weekends, with their kids around and also probably coming around to a house and then having way too much and driving home.
At the end of all that with kids in tow as well. And, we wanted to set a better example, really, but also have the presence of mind and the self awareness to really enjoy a bit more of our kids upbringing than to think that at the end of every week, we deserve the break and we should go out and celebrate and just get tanked because it felt like the thing that everyone does, you live for the weekends the time outside of work is yours, you’re trying to take it back, and then it’s a race to, to drink as much as you can. We soon found out that it was affording us a lot of time, and actually that, in itself, became the positive wave of change that then followed from that was what we were able to get to.
And I found myself just having time to think about things. I was spending time with the kids. I was reading more. I was getting back into music and playing music and writing music. I was much more aware of myself, which was quite confronting actually because I think that we spend a lot of time, when we’re drinking, obviously masking who we are and how we feel.
And a lot of behaviours are just put to the side. So I actually had to really sit with myself and get comfortable with that, which was quite a difficult process for me personally. But it was kind of interesting as well because everyone loves thinking about themselves to some extent and actually getting to know yourself and then being much more aware of how you were received in the world and people ask you about, what you’re placed on the planet to do and what’s your why and all these sorts of things. And I had no idea before that. And I think that getting to that point, it was just a massive awakening for me.
So hard, but all of the things because of my curiosity led to more opportunities coming up. Greater things were happening both on a personal and with work level. So it was always getting better and better with every step.
[00:28:29] Faye Lawrence: Yeah, you’ve touched on a number of things there that are so important and that is the growth mindset where we’re leaning into discomfort. We know that the difficulty is part of the process and that’s where you get the gold which is so true, like through those challenging experiences, because avoidance is our our default, isn’t it, as humans and, people can say, oh, there’s addicts over there, and we’re all addicted.
We’re all addicted to something. Whether it’s tech, social media, work, food,
[00:29:01] Chris Hudson: Sugar. Sex,
[00:29:02] Faye Lawrence: gambling, you know, you name it, I think it’s our sort of default as humans to what we’re wired to pull away from pain and move towards pleasure. And so we don’t want to deal with this tough stuff underneath or, ooh there’s something I can see that I don’t really like about myself.
There’s something to distract myself with over here, whether that’s alcohol or Netflix, whatever it is. And when we go through the process, when we take the alcohol out, certainly if it’s been a sort of MO for a long time, the growth, and the knowing, the learning who you actually are under there is just so phenomenal. One of the things that I think is such a huge gain. That you’re forced to face yourself and deal with that stuff that’s holding you back. And there’s always stuff, everybody’s got the stuff. You feel proud of yourself.
[00:29:55] Chris Hudson: Yeah.
[00:29:55] Faye Lawrence: You
You feel proud of yourself and you get to know who you are.
And you’re like hold on. Why am I people pleasing? Why am I letting people treat me like that? Why am I doing this thing that I don’t want to do? Or in this career that I don’t enjoy, or for some people that’s relationships, like people are often drinking to put off making decisions to tolerate the intolerable for them, whatever that might be in their lives. And there’s nowhere to run and hide when you stop, when you take the alcohol out, if that’s been the way that you’ve dealt with that, which sounds like, oh God, such an awful process, but it is so liberating. And you grow to self acceptance. And the other thing that I just wanted to touch on Chris, is that you mentioned about the kids.
And it’s my biggest regret that I didn’t stop when my children were younger. Because I grew up in that environment and I knew what it was like. And I went on to do the same to my kids. And thankfully we’ve got a great relationship now, but most things I’ve come to terms with, but that is still a big regret of mine that I didn’t break the cycle earlier.
So well done to you and your wife to recognising the impact of, how that can shape your children’s lives for the better.
[00:31:09] Chris Hudson: Obviously you can always have regrets. I think looking back, you can always say that you’d have gotten more out of it if you started sooner as is the case with a lot of things, with work or in your personal life. But actually if you’re quite focused, there’s a lot of conversation, obviously around gratitude. At the minute and keeping a gratitude journal or just even reflecting each day on the things that you do with your kids or the people that are important to you or the things that work that made you happy, just that process of reflection gives you that reinforcement around what’s important to you in the day or, what you got out of it and what you can take forward as well.
So I think, you can always look back, but, as anyone who’s been in the army or the SES tell you, it’s like, that’s the past, you know, you just got to move on.
[00:31:51] Faye Lawrence: No!
[00:31:51] Chris Hudson: Don’t go back there because today is today and you just got to seize it.
[00:31:56] Faye Lawrence: The thing that you touched on there is also really important because it’s about that maintaining motivation and the release of dopamine, which often we’re getting from the alcohol. So when we’re reflecting on, yeah, I’m a bit of a badass cause I’ve done, X, Y, Z, or I enjoyed this or whatever.
We get that dopamine release and that’s really important to be able to keep doing the heart thing. But we also start to get. those like little glimmers, don’t we, of like, oh there’s joy in all these things that I didn’t even notice for a long time. Like, Oh, the leaves are sparkling in the sunshine. I’m looking out my window here,
[00:32:35] Chris Hudson: What planet you’re on?
[00:32:36] Faye Lawrence: Yeah, but it’s,
[00:32:37] Chris Hudson: The touch of the trees and feeling the leaves are like, what am I doing? It’s like the pub shuts in 10 minutes. Why aren’t we going down there?
[00:32:43] Faye Lawrence: Turn into hippies, but it is, that whole, you find the joy in the small things in life, and they become the big things, and you start to find those, a lot of that stuff much more rewarding, and it gives you a lot of contentment.
[00:32:56] Chris Hudson: I think the big one then after that, as if that isn’t hard enough, the big one after that is to then move it into the social context because you’re turning up at parties, barbecues, whatever it is. And the majority of people there are going to be drinking and you’re like, I’m absolutely fine without it, don’t ask me about it, we can just do, talk about other things, it ends up being a topic and then you’re in that kind of weird sort of place where you have to justify, that you’re having a good time even more so and people will need to see that you’re having a really good time for them to believe that not drinking is okay.
All these sorts of things. So like you’re kind of like this, uber acted version of yourself sometimes where you’re just trying to prove that everything’s okay. And I think within the world of business, that’s also the case, because you’re going about your work. And as soon as this social thing comes up, you’ve got to convince people that, you’re the same person.
You’re still an interesting person. You’ve got a life outside of work. You’ve got all these things to talk to. I’ve got my own point of view on that, but I’d love to hear yours.
[00:33:51] Faye Lawrence: Yeah, my point of view on that is probably quite different to when I first stopped. So when I first stopped I was really determined, like I say, I had a very black and white view of it all because that was helpful to me. And I liken it a little bit to when you first have kids, because when you first have kids, you’re like, I’m not going to be one of those parents.
I’m not going to be, you know, I’m still going to go backpacking with my kid. My kid’s not going to be watching TV and having sweets, or whatever. My life’s not going to change. I’m going to, oh, come back to me in 12 months time. And let’s, you know, and I think in the beginning there’s probably a little bit of that whole trying to prove that you’re still the same person and you’re just as much fun.
And I think that lessens over time because I’m not trying to prove anything to anyone anymore. I just am, and actually they can like it or they equally don’t have to, I’m not trying to convert anybody. I’m not saying that this is the way people should be at all. All I’m saying is and have always said is let’s stop pressuring people.
If we can, can we have more options for people? That’s all. When people go to the Christmas parties, can we have things that are other than just a big booze fest or can we have drinks other than water and coke, so that people don’t have what you’re experiencing about there. They can turn up, they can have a drink, alcoholic drink, non alcoholic drink, whatever.
No one cares. It’s about the options for people. It’s about stopping the pressure around it. And so that people, can turn up, be who they are, and that’s okay. You don’t have to be anything else, and I think we’ve seen movements in other areas around gender, around neurodiversity, for example, around mental health, all of these other areas where we’ve become much more open, accepting and mindful about creating those inclusive spaces and allowing for people to basically be who they are, even in a work capacity, which used to be that’s the personal domain.
We don’t go there. And I think this is another extension of that. Veganism when I first came to Australia, no one was doing that. Now you go to the shops, you’ve got all sorts there. You’ve got every product under the sun. You go to restaurants, you’ve got, why can’t we have that with alcohol? And no one cares whether you have a steak or whether you have a vegetarian sausage or whether you have, you know-
[00:36:22] Chris Hudson: Yeah. Maybe that’s the way to look at it. It’s like everyone has to eat and it doesn’t matter what you eat, you can still have fun.
[00:36:27] Faye Lawrence: I think the pressure to be the same as you were before and be fun and be this and be that, whatever you, whatever that is to you reduces over time. And now if I’m going to go to a thing, I’m probably going to go after a couple of hours, especially if people start getting drunk.
Your tastes change, the things you want to do change, you as a person change, your priorities change. And that’s okay.
[00:36:51] Chris Hudson: I reckon you could definitely narrow your socialising time down and, because I’m all in the business of efficiency and would rather spend less time doing things where possible. I think you could socialise quicker and you can get around the room. You can have the important conversations way before any of that happens and you find yourself just not having the patience really to stick around until 2 am to see what else happens because you really know what’s going to happen and people become less coherent. They all think it’s really funny and you don’t think it’s very funny. So you may as well have left at 8 pm. So,
[00:37:21] Faye Lawrence: you’re also like, I used to spend hours, hours doing this. And the conversation just goes round and round and round. You’re having these deep and meaningfuls with some random person you met when you were out having a cigarette or something, you know, you can’t even remember it the next day. So,
[00:37:41] Chris Hudson: So you got to do that. You got to do that because like there was a part of the start where I thought it was like, it’s definitely like the smoking thing because you can see that people are out there having these chats. It’s like a secret chat and that’s where like the relationships are forming.
And if you’re not, it’s the same with being in the office, actually, or working from home, you think these chats are happening. You think there’s some bonding going on where you’re not part of it. And then the same with drinking. If you leave at six. And you know that everyone’s been out until 4 am.
There’s some time elapsed there that you think, Okay, well I needed to have been part of that. If you’ve been through the process of not drinking and staying with them until 2am, 4am, you’ll soon know that actually it was never worth it. Never. Because those people, you can get what you want from them.
You can connect with them throughout the day. You can talk about more meaningful things. You can obviously articulate yourself a hell of a lot better as well. It’s a false economy I think. But anyway, that’s my own personal view. I don’t want to push it onto other people
[00:38:35] Faye Lawrence: No. And I
[00:38:36] Chris Hudson: like everyone loves having a great time, but,
[00:38:39] Faye Lawrence: It doesn’t have to be an either or proposition for a lot of people.
[00:38:42] Chris Hudson: yeah.
[00:38:42] Faye Lawrence: It’s about having permission not to, in a way, because people a lot of the time feel they don’t have that permission within themselves, if that makes sense, to say no or to leave or to not partake.
They feel like they must and it’s expected and if they don’t, they’re singling themselves out as not a team player and these are very valid concerns. I’d imagine in some industries that yes, it’s going to have a knock on, potentially could have a knock on impact, but then you’ve also got to think about things like how it can affect your personal brand for want of a better word in a negative way.
How it might actually impact on you not being taken as seriously or certainly from a productivity perspective or performance perspective, a lot of people are shifting with that in mind, we’ve got all this biohacking and ice baths and all the rest of it and on that sort of continuum, there’s a lot of interest as well because people are recognising they want to really busy.
We’re all juggling a lot of stuff. And if I’m going to work hung over all the time or feeling foggy, then that’s enough reason that I actually don’t want to do it. So I think, there’s a lot of reasons now, but I’m definitely seeing a lot more on the productivity side of things coming through from people that aren’t necessarily huge drinkers.
They just wanting to pull up stumps because they’re noticing the impact on their performance and also their health.
[00:40:04] Chris Hudson: Yeah. Cause tell us a bit about the clients that you have and who you work with. Some of the, you don’t have to go into too many details, but some of the situations that you feel are coming up at a high level.
[00:40:14] Faye Lawrence: Yeah for a lot of people what will happen is it will start out as a social thing and then it might remain at that. But invariably what the pattern does tend to be for a lot of people that they end up predominantly drinking at home or by themselves. And depending on where they are, there’s a lot of shame in this because people hold onto it very tightly.
And this is another reason why I’ve always wanted to be so open about this because when we can speak openly about these things in the same way that has happened for mental health over the last 20 years, the research shows once again that it reduces the time, which I think at the moment is about between 10 and 15 years between when people recognise they’ve got an issue and when they actually go and seek help.
And that’s because of this shame and stigma and this constant negotiation because we surround ourselves with people like us where we’re like, no, I’m all right. Oh, no. Well, I did have those, a number of hours that I can’t remember that thing. And I did say that thing to the boss and oh God, I called someone so and so, whatever.
You’ve behaved badly at work. There’s been an incident, whatever it might be for you. Tick tick to all the above for me. So it reduces the time when we can reduce the shame and stigma and talk openly about these things, then it reduces the time that it takes for people to go and seek help, even if they’re not at the pointy end, just go and talk to your GP and say, hey , I think I’m drinking too much. And so when they might come to me, they might have tried a number of other things and or it might be the first time that they’re. dIpping their toe into this, but a lot of the time it’s drinking by themselves at home or with their partner who often is.
a similar level of drinker as them. And the motivations just really vary from person to person. They’re all professionals. They’re all high performers. And it’s amazing. The reason that I mentioned the fact that it’s a secret thing and done separately is people on the outside don’t
[00:42:19] Chris Hudson: Yeah. This is like some sort of like rockstar cliche where backstage there’s all sorts of boozing and debauchery going on and then front stage is like the show’s on and I’m this person and you’re going to love me and I’m front sensor but yeah, that that’s masking. Isn’t it?
[00:42:33] Faye Lawrence: Yeah, people wouldn’t know. And so my clients, they come from a variety of professions, but I have had quite a few from the legal profession and mental health as well. And they come to me partially because I have got lived experience as well as the qualifications, but I don’t have to have, unlike a psychologist, for example it’s not going to go on their health record.
Which is a very real consideration if you’re in certain professions.
[00:42:58] Chris Hudson: Yeah, I mean you see teachers and doctors and even back in my uni days that was the big drinking culture around those types of students because it was, oh, this is my day job and this is now it’s like the yin yang of what, what your life involves and obviously you push into that area when you’re not doing your day job and it’s deadly serious and it’s this but I can see how that would work.
[00:43:17] Faye Lawrence: They’re suffering a lot and they often people have been going back and forth with themselves for a long time just trying to deal with it because, they think I’m not like the type of person that goes to AA. That’s so far removed and they might not be.
it’s really challenging for people when they’re in that space, the grey area drinking space, because this internal negotiation goes on for a long time. So if we give people the opportunity to get out quicker. Early intervention. Let’s not wait till people hit rock bottom. But yes, my clients are all high functioning.
They’re all high performers. Generally what happens is it starts coming to a head, particularly as they age. Because you just don’t have the, you can’t push through like you always have done.
[00:43:59] Chris Hudson: It starts to take its toll in a way and that is the beginning of the process sometimes.
[00:44:04] Faye Lawrence: That can be part of it, or it can be a relationship’s broken down or something. And that’s escalated the drinking into, which has always kind of been there, but maybe not to that same degree. There’s a life event that has really pushed it up to a much more significant intake.
[00:44:22] Chris Hudson: Super interesting and it’s if we haven’t talked about the positives enough in this episode I’d love to just maybe finish on you know some of the amazing things that you’re doing and the fun that you’re having within the community that you’re running as well just to bring that to life for people that really wouldn’t understand why that would be better than a Gin & Tonic. But let’s have a let’s have a moment on that if we can.
[00:44:41] Faye Lawrence: For me, the biggest gains have been probably in my relationship with myself. You touched on that earlier and the relationships that I have with other people, important people around me. I think I kept myself small with the alcohol. I’ve done so much since I stopped drinking that I just didn’t think I’d ever be able to do. Because it was easier just to go home and, get home and have a few wines or go out at lunchtime or whatever it was. And then I didn’t have to think about the things that I wanted and wasn’t doing or was scared to do. I’ve done lot, that I never in a million years thought I would be able to do since I stopped drinking.
And it’s just made me realise how much we limit ourselves with these beliefs that we hold that it’s too scary over there cause that’s always where the growth is. So now I intentionally, the difference now is I always, I have an intention every day, if possible, to lean into discomfort.
Whereas it used to be the exact opposite. I used to think it was unfair, any kind of inconvenience or discomfort whether that was psychological, physical, whatever it was, whereas now I actually want to build my ability cause struggle is part of life for everybody, and I used to think that wasn’t fair.
Because the old social justice warrior in me would come out, that’s not fair. We’ve got to right the wrongs. Whereas now I’m like no one comes out unscathed. that thing of, meeting life on life’s terms. Life gets easier once you start doing this. And once you start going, rather than running away when things are uncomfortable. Lean in, and it dissipates, the discomfort dissipates. I had lifelong issues with terrible anxiety, obviously the ADHD has been a massive thing, I didn’t get diagnosed until last year, huge links with addiction, huge, anyone who’s experienced kind of addiction. I’ve really, it’s worth looking into as a consideration if you read anything about ADHD because it’s across the board.
It’s with food, it’s with drugs, it’s with alcohol, it’s with gambling, it’s with everything. The research all bears this out. Now I basically accept life on life’s terms and I am proud of myself and I like myself, whereas before I didn’t. I didn’t at all. And so that’s been the gift.
There’s been so many, I just couldn’t put my finger on it. I’d love to say I was one of these people that spring out of bed in the morning and do a marathon, but I’m just not. I’m still waiting for that to happen. I’m taking the wins where I can, Chris. How about you?
[00:47:18] Chris Hudson: Yeah I just immediately found that, being in tune with myself, It felt like I was able to handle things a lot better and a lot more.
I was able to equip myself situations. I think anxiety is definitely a thing, preparing both within work and outside of work and preparing for life in general. Preparedness is something that you easily, much more easily reach if you have your wits about you can actually, because I overthink a lot as well.
I’m thinking okay how do I just get through that get ready and then everything else is, I’m much more happy with uncomfortable situations now because I know that whatever it is, I can either just take it in face value or take the time out to process it and just be a bit more deliberate about my thoughts, actions and the consequences of engaging with things, really. Yeah, it sounds like a bit more of a spiritual art and that’s probably where it starts for me. And then all of the things that I mentioned before come from that. The curiosity is sparked, motivation, just drive and ambition. All of the things, the ideas that I had once upon a time and just parked.
And I was probably feeling quite, quietly frustrated. I’ve now been in a position to take on and actually act upon, I’d never have found myself in this position doing a podcast or running a podcast series. I wouldn’t even have been at a speaker event or in a live interview scenario.
I wouldn’t have felt comfortable with that. I think it’s just knowing yourself and seeing where you can go with it really and I love the quote which I think was from your TEDx talk but it’s is the one that says because who doesn’t want to free themselves of their shackles and soar like an eagle. That’s my website. Yeah. It It is. It is because you build trust with yourself when you’ve lost it. You’ve lost it because you keep falling back on what you said you were going to do. And over a long time you build you’ve lost that trust and you’re building it back up and you’re acting in your own best interest.
Much more often and you’re trusting yourself and you’re listening to yourself and you’re going hold on. What do I want here? Not in a selfish way, what’s the best thing here for me rather than defaulting to pleasing everybody else and then you soaring like an eagle.
[00:49:15] Chris Hudson: That’s it. I don’t think we can get any higher or better than that in this interview. So if we’re soaring, we’ve done well. But I’m really appreciate your time today, Faye. And thanks so much for being so sharing and kind with your time and just talking us through the experiences that you’ve had, but also what you’ve been able to do with it.
And also on a personal note, just thank you for, I know you do this coaching as your job, but actually being asked questions back is something that doesn’t often happen to me on this show either so yeah, just thank you for
[00:49:43] Faye Lawrence: oh god, sorry, did I put you under the spot?
[00:49:45] Chris Hudson: It’s all right I can cut it out
[00:49:47] Faye Lawrence: I did an interview with Yumi Steins on her podcast, Ladies, We Need To Talk. And it was about sober sex. And I did the same to her because I’m genuinely like, I’m curious about people. I love it. I love learning about others experiences.
And she was exactly the same. She said, you were the first guest who’s ever asked me anything.
[00:50:08] Chris Hudson: Yeah, because you’re normally driving it and then you’re getting something back over the net
[00:50:12] Faye Lawrence: Oh no, this wasn’t in the notes.
[00:50:13] Chris Hudson: It’s fine, I’m very happy with that. Thank you so much and where can people find you or get in touch if they want to hear more about the amazing work that you do, Faye?
[00:50:20] Faye Lawrence: They can get me on socials, Instagram, LinkedIn Facebook. So it’s Faye Lawrence, L-a-w-r-e-n-c-e, or my website off the same name and Untoxicated as well, which is not intoxicated. It’s untoxicated.com.au. If you want to come and check out any events in Brisbane, Sydney, Melbourne, come and get amongst it.
We’d love to have you.
[00:50:43] Chris Hudson: Yeah, I’ve got to get along for this. Thank you so much.
[00:50:45] Faye Lawrence: Oh, my pleasure. Thanks for inviting me on, Chris.
[00:50:47] Chris Hudson: Okay, so that’s it for this episode. If you’re hearing this message, you’ve listened all the way to the end. So thank you very much. We hope you enjoyed the show. We’d love to hear your feedback. So please leave us a review and share this episode with your friends, team members, leaders if you think it’ll make a difference.
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