Communicating for connection: Personal branding, team dynamics & Gen Z in the workforce

“At the end of the day, it’s about what is the goal or purpose both these people in the room are in for? If that is not aligned, everything else won’t make sense.”
Ishani Nigam

In this episode you’ll hear about

• Taking your first step in change and careers: Avoiding overwhelm & knowing how to take action to make change in your life, work and build the future you desire
• Building functional & fruitful teams: How to structure and manage a team for success & mitigating the common barriers that get in the way
• Handling curveballs within business: Being prepared for change ahead of change and the right mindset to take advantage of unexpected circumstances
• Vulnerability in the workplace: Understanding the boundaries between work and personal life and how much vulnerability to bring into your work life and when
• Gen Z in business: How the next generation can make it work for themselves and how businesses can make it work for them

Key links

MyGigsters

Benjemen Elengovan

ThincLab Initiative by Uni of Adelaide

My First Step Ever podcast

My First Step Ever Instagram

About our guest

Ishani Nigam, originally from Mumbai, India, is a dynamic individual who passionately believes in seizing life’s opportunities and nurturing one’s inner calling. After completing her bachelor’s degree, she ventured into the worlds of advertising, production, and project management before pursuing a master’s degree at Unimelb in Melbourne, Australia.

Ishani’s journey has been marked by both challenges and moments of inspiration. Her determination led her to create the “My First Step Ever” podcast, where she empowers young people to embrace conviction and cultivate action-oriented mindsets.

In addition to her podcasting endeavours, Ishani serves as a content creator and community outreach officer at MyGigsters, a leading FinTech start-up in Australia, dedicated to helping self-employed individuals achieve financial security.

Outside her professional life, Ishani is a trained Bollywood dancer and choreographer who has graced the stage with her performances. She’s an avid adventurer, embracing activities like hiking and extreme sports, while also indulging in her love for dark chocolate. Ishani’s diverse interests and commitment to personal growth make her a proud youth empowerment advocate.

About our host

Our host, Chris Hudson, is a Teacher, Experience Designer and Founder of business transformation coaching and consultancy Company Road.

Company Road was founded by Chris Hudson, who saw over-niching and specialisation within corporates as a significant barrier to change.

Every team approaches transformation in their own way, also bringing in their own partners to help. And while they’re working towards the same organisational goal, it’s this over-fragmentation that stunts rapid progress at a company-wide level.

Having worked as a marketer, transformation leader, teacher and practitioner of design thinking for over 20 years, both here in Australia and internationally, Chris brings a unique, deep and ‘blended’ skillset that will cohere and enable your teams to deliver ambitious and complex change programs.

Transcript
Chris Hudson: Hi everyone.

And welcome to this week’s twisting and turning episode of the Company Road podcast. Sometimes we’re lucky enough to talk to rising stars and leaders on this show. But this week we’re stepping it up as I’m delighted to talk to somebody who is not only a podcast host in her own right, but who also leads a community of rising stars of people that have taken the courage to take their first step up in one way or another.

So we’ll hear more about that, but it gives me great pleasure to announce my next guest. Originally from Mumbai, India, and you’ve taken Australia by storm as well. And now you reside in sunny South Australia, but Ishani Nagam, welcome to the show.

[00:00:38] Ishani Nigam: Hi Chris. Thank you so much for that lovely, warm and sunny welcome. I am quite excited to be on this show and talk more about what we’re going to talk about. So yeah, thank you so much.

[00:00:48] Chris Hudson: Not a problem. And Ishani, it looks on face value as if you’ve done an incredible amount in your career so far, and you’ve helped a lot of people along the way. It also looks like you’ve got many talents. So you’re a storyteller, a podcaster, a speaker, a connector, a content creator, a community and a youth leader as well.

So I’d love to know where all of that started and maybe just to hear your story to begin with.

[00:01:09] Ishani Nigam: Yes, of course. I think let’s just say that the storytelling aspects started from the very beginning. I remember when I was- Sorry, I don’t remember this. I remember my mom telling this when I was four years old. Back in India, Mumbai, where I grew up, that I used to kind of run towards the television and whenever an advertisement used to play, and I used to just kind of look at it with an awe, and the moment any show or, you know, sitcom used to start, just run away.

So it was just the advertisements that really caught my attention, you know, the visuals, the imagery, and as I grew up, I think what really caught my attention was the storytelling part of it, that how really the storytellers, the directors, or you know, the copywriters, the writers are able to capture the mind and the heart of people whom they are really talking to, whether it’s setting a concept or a product or even a feeling to say so.

And that’s when you know my love, interest for storytelling all began. And I think the rest of the time stuff, probably just, I would say the speaker interest really came from my father looking at my father. He is a really good communicator, a speaker. Maybe I just picked it up from there and the rest part of it, the connector, the communicator podcaster that all happened in Australia.

So yes, I think I came to Australia in 2019 as a student of the University of Melbourne to do my master’s in marketing communications. I co-founded a club, I started doing voluntary activities. that’s when my podcast started. So everything came into being over there.

And now when I’ve shifted to Adelaide, that’s South Australia, it’s been over a year. I’ve probably kind of been a really encouraged by the community itself over here, the innovator community and the startup community that I’m able to relay that talent of a me that interest a bit more at this point in time.

[00:02:51] Chris Hudson: Yeah. Wonderful. that’s a lot that you’ve packed into a short period of time. And, yeah, I’d just love to hear about the work that you do now and, how has that led you to do the work that you do now? Tell us a bit about what you do.

[00:03:01] Ishani Nigam: So professionally, I working as a content creator, a community outreach coordinator at MyGigsters, which is a financial services platform for the self employed, and I essentially came on board because I really kind of connected with the mission and also with the way the founder, the CEO, Benjemen Elengovan worked with the company.

And as I said, I was always very interested in audiovisual medium, how you kind of capture people’s mind and tell a story so probably that’s where, you know, the interest of utilising this particular medium or to fit into the role, kind of came about. Besides that, I am also a podcaster, as we’ve spoken about.

It’s called My First Step Ever, which started off in the last semester of my master’s, which was in mid August 2020. And since then, I have just been continuing that because I really believe that if you have some sort of talent or you have an interest, do not wait for people to come and give you the platform or the opportunity.

If you can do it, just go ahead and create that platform and do it. It did not come very easy to me as well. Like it took me a bit of time to also understand that I need to take action, be more proactive and create that platform for myself. So I like speaking. I mean, I think by now you, everyone who’s listening could have understood that. So I thought I want to utilise that medium. Also, I wanted to make it very meaningful because I was, I definitely wasn’t a former international student, and I wanted to address the gap when someone is able to kind of go out into the world and do a job.

But how do you get a job? But that gap and that mindset actually, for me, transformed into actually empowering the youth and understanding the story behind it. whatever a person might call their success that the behind the scenes, the story, the journey is actually the king and not the overnight success that we think about.

Or when people talk about when someone becomes famous, there’s actually a long story or journey to it. And that is what I wanted to bring forward to the youth. So they build conviction and they have action. They can take action. So these are the few things I’m doing. Besides that, I am also kind of keen for a freelancing job where I am able to present something to host something.

And I am also starting as a mentor for ThinkLab initiative by University of Adelaide. So yeah, a couple of things at this point in time.

[00:05:22] Chris Hudson: Yeah, well, that’s loads to keep you busy. And I love the story, not only about, your time when you were younger, but also, relating to what you’ve been able to do here in Australia since you finished your studies. I believe the First Step Ever podcast has just dropped his 125th episode, which is fantastic.

So huge congratulations on that achievement.

[00:05:39] Ishani Nigam: Thank you.

[00:05:40] Chris Hudson: So that’s big. I mean, you’ve been going for a little while, way longer than I have, so that’s pretty cool. But yeah, I just I love the idea of it. I think there’s a lot of synergy between, what we talk about in this show, which is where people are within organisations and they’re thinking about how they can make change possible in some sort of way.

And your show, which is really focused around the first step somebody would take to, to lead to that outcome, that they’re chasing really. So you talk about the journey and often people talk about the journey being the thing that people live for, as opposed to the end result.

I think as soon as you start talking about journeys and not so much targets and outcomes it lends itself more to a story and you’ve probably heard a lot of stories in the podcast episodes that you have, so out of 125, is there one that really stands out as being somebody whose story of change was just incredible?

[00:06:28] Ishani Nigam: I would say moments in many people’s story. I wouldn’t be able to pinpoint one story. There are a couple, but I would say the moments where a person has shown act of confidence in the times where in general, a lot of us wouldn’t think of doing that just out of fear of failure. So for example in so I’m giving this away, in the latest episode, that’s going to come soon I interviewed a youth leader and she barely passed out of, she’s just passed out of her university. She even doesn’t have a transcript yet. She’s so confident about her skills. Probably that she went and she applied for a managerial post. This is a bit far fetched thought, but she had that confidence to let’s give it a go. She did receive a call from the other end, just because the person wanted to see who has this guts to come and apply for a managerial role just after graduating. And believe it or not, she actually got a role, not the managerial role, but she did get a role because they saw the potential in her and she landed in the place where she wanted to get the foot in the door.

So I think moments like this of confidence and belief in oneself, that is actually something that really, when I’m kind of going through these stories.

[00:07:36] Chris Hudson: Yeah, that’s right. These are everyday moments and I think that people can often either just not see them or let them pass by in some way or another. And what moments in your life stand out as being ones where you’ve had to make a decision really quickly for it to be that first step, almost for it to lead to something else?

[00:07:53] Ishani Nigam: I think I was in one of the most common situations that a lot of us find ourselves in. So one of my roles was made redundant while I was in Australia. And I was informed about it midday. So it did sort of come as a shock for me for sure, because I was performing well.

Everything looked well, but there was some sort of an indication that it might, or I mean, I dunno how it would shape out, but this was a very sudden blow, I would say I just took five minutes after coming out of my office saying the five minutes that I have to get to the bus stand.

I will brood over it and then I have to snap out of it because I don’t have the luxury of sulking over it right now. Because my living, my bills, rents, everything depends on this right now. I can’t be sulking and it takes so much time to get a job. So the very moment I reached home, I just kind of drank water.

I maybe meditated or maybe took a nap. I just rested for a bit and bang on I just came back. I started looking for jobs. More than that. I started tapping into my network. So this is how I would say I kind of bounce back and this has and I think this is a practice that has become for me. Living all by myself in Australia, and to generalise this for our listeners, if you live by yourself anywhere, you face such situations that you have no one else to back on except yourself in several situations. One cannot just sit and think, sulk and brood over it because you don’t have the luxury, as I said, and the choice of it. And I think these small, I wouldn’t say small, but some situations that really make you think that how you can operate, sit back, reflect, plan, take action, and the way you take action, be smart about it.

Now, I was definitely looking at jobs online, but I was also tapping into my networks because that’s really a really good way of, you know, kind of tapping into the network where you maybe wanted to work earlier. This is another maybe door that is open for you. So that’s an example if I can give you know, how things worked out for me.

[00:09:49] Chris Hudson: Yeah, that’s great. If you think about that response, did it trace back to something else that you’d learned earlier in life, was there a time at which it took longer for you to bounce back and it led to, I guess, I always find that there are more options when you take more time, there are more and more options that present to you.

So it can become more and more difficult in a way. Whereas if you’re right there in the moment, you can jump onto something straight away. I think people think about it on both sides, if they’ve been made redundant inside, some people take the time out, they want to look at all the options.

Then they come back into the world of work when they’re ready, but some people just know what they want. So was that always the case for you?

[00:10:21] Ishani Nigam: But that’s a really good question, Chris. And I think I like to segregate the scenarios probably these are like different scenarios. So the moment when the phase where you are not really sure what you want to do and you take a break, that’s sort of a different scenario. That’s, I think, a purposeful decision.

The scenario where everything’s going well and you have a challenge thrown at you and you really need to look for the next step forward and you cannot keep sitting idle. That’s the scenario. That’s another scenario. For me, particularly as you asked previously, if I had the same, viewpoint and maybe the mindset. Actually, no. And this is what I’ve developed. Previously, if things would go wrong, the first question I would ask, why me? What have I done wrong? , the same sulking route that you go into and honestly cry, cry for a good amount of time and then just think the world is collapsed. There’s nothing good happening with me.

So that definitely was the kind of kind of route that I used to be in. But as I said, I’m happy that I grew very evolved in a really good way because when you understand that you are there to fend for yourself and you really have to rely on yourself, you learn the more practical ways of life that there’s nothing in crying or blaming yourself or anything in the world.

Everything happens for good. And this is a conscious thinking that one needs to kind of build in themselves. So for anyone who’s listening to us today, and I like to kind of, I know there’s a lot on my podcast, so I’m just saying anyone who’s listening to us today, whatever situation you are in, it definitely is challenging, but you can only come out of it and start taking action once you have the mindset switch. And the switch happens when you have to look at it in a positive way. And the thing is, what you tell yourself, whatever you tell yourself that will start becoming your reality. So I tell myself, okay, this was already unforeseen situation.

I’m sure it has happened for some good. It’s going to be a challenging journey for the next couple of weeks or months, but let me just get on with it. So that’s how I now deal with that versus what I used to do earlier.

[00:12:25] Chris Hudson: Yeah, that’s a fantastic attitude. I remember hearing something similar when I was going, this was just before my wife and I got married, and we went on this it was like a course that you had to go on so that you’re getting prepared for being married, and I remember them saying to us, it was all about conflicts and how, we had to do different things. One thing was about managing budgets and money and then there’s another thing around conflicts and kids and whatever else. And the conflict one was, you’re going to have your arguments and your disagreements, but it’s really about how quickly you can turn and fix it, rather than just assuming it’s a disagreement and that’s it, right?

So it’s exactly to that point that you mentioned where, it’s a mindset shift of saying, okay, this is going to get me down and I’m going to have to wait to see what happens. And it’s about taking control back and then being able to act positively, really, and constructively to really fix the situation and just get on with life so that sounds good. That sounds really good. Were there any other stories, from your podcast similar to that, where people have been in, maybe within businesses and they’ve tried to do something and you think, okay, this has worked really well for them because of something they’ve attempted to do?

[00:13:27] Ishani Nigam: I think that there was this founder who, did mention about the mindset of, when the situation comes about crisis management. So I think at the management level, something had gone wrong. And rather than kind of playing the blame game for the first time, I think they shifted their narrative, which was they sat together and asked, what did they do wrong on that level?

The top level, was there anything that something went wrong? And they did find that there was things that went wrong and they accepted it. And I think that was such a powerful story for someone to say that and accept that out loud that they did that. They accepted it and they then apologise or in whichever form and then they did make changes and from then the relationship between the management and the employees, they kind of freely walk through. And I think stories like these. They really make you understand that at the end of the day, we are all humans and it’s all about understanding working in a space together.

And there’s no harm in kind of reflecting back and seeing that where, where have we gone wrong? instead of doing that team, so I think that was one thing that reflected on the company culture to come on for them for the future for their future. And yeah, it really changed their game.

So it was really interesting.

[00:14:46] Chris Hudson: That’s a really good one as well. I think, we can think about maybe effective ways in which somebody comes to take their first step. And that would definitely be one of them where, you’re basically thinking about the situation and, your own role.

And effectively what you can control within that situation as well. What do you, what can you bring, what can you influence? I think there’s a lot out there that feels like it’s quite factual and you can’t change it at all. But actually you can think about what you yourself can bring to that situation a lot of the time.

Just to see, what response you might get and that can be okay too. So are there any other sort of effective ways that, that you think have really helped people take their first step?

[00:15:22] Ishani Nigam: Running a business or working in a team, in a company, in an organisation, at the very bottom level, everything comes down to the human beings who are working over there, the people. So obviously, and very, very evidently, it is very important for everyone to align with the company’s goal and mission.

That mission, that is the first step. That’s why everyone has come together. But once you’re in, it’s also very important to treat everyone as a human being who have, they have their own aspirations, they have their own dreams, they have their own goals. So that’s one way you can bring about a change. If you feel that things are not going the right way.

It’s probably ultimately this is a machine. Your company, for example, is a car. We all are parts of it. If you are ignoring the left rear tire and the rest tires are working well. I don’t know how far the car will go. So it’s about kind of stopping down for the pit stop and kind of looking at if everyone goals are aligned.

They are at a wavelength. Everyone’s feeling that they are contributing and their contribution is being recognised. So this is something that personally I have also kind of experience. And even as a person who’s kind of sort of leading a team, I do always kind of see it that I’m able to understand each person, where they come from, what really kind of drives them, what is okay, what is not, where you can challenge them, where you can push them, where you can bring on their expertise and, and once that environment is created, it really works well.

Because then you have a really transparent communication happening and that, that really positively impacts the company.

[00:16:59] Chris Hudson: Yeah. What do you see that gets in the way of that? What are some of the barriers?

[00:17:02] Ishani Nigam: The number one barrier I would say is people driving their own individualistic need and not coming together and communicating that they can incorporate that in achieving a single goal. Second would also be the systems that are created, . Structures and systems, are they serving the people who are running it or are being impacted or are they efficient?

So that’s also another thing. The systems and I think from what I would say, the third thing would be if there is really a need for the talent that you have got after a certain period of time. Do you think they’re still contributing to the goal, the mission? Because if they are yet not at that same page, because after a couple of months or a year, people evolve.

They’re thinking they need changes. So keep checking in is very important, you know, see where we are at as a team. So that is something that could also be a barrier, so I think we need to have a vision when it comes to kind of leading a team or running a company in that way and be very vigilant or aware of the people in the company as well.

[00:18:06] Chris Hudson: Yeah, it’s interesting when you think about change because often people would attribute that to maybe one or two people within the team, but not the rest, because they’ve led the team through that change or they’ve been able to bring that change about in some way when other people weren’t expecting it, but what is your view on that?

Do you think that there’s always needs to be like this visionary leader or do you think the team can just get together and do it?

[00:18:29] Ishani Nigam: I believe when people are recruited, that is for a reason. Because they have that certain skills and talent to kind of fill in that role, but also because they have an attitude to learn and probably a team and they can work in a team environment. And I do believe there needs to be a direction, a vision that needs to guide all of them.

So there has to be a direction given, but not micromanagement, one should not be micromanaging people because that’s my personal view because you have people because of certain reason and that’s the thing when you see a couple of people doing really well, making that changes and the other people you don’t really see in other teammates, not really making that change, that’s completely okay.

I mean, the first question is, is that really affecting the company in any way? Not everyone needs to be a change maker and at times one needs to also fill in the role of the show of really kind of following in terms of being a team member and following what has been kind of shared. At different times, I think people should play that role.

So that is, I think that how, It could work out. So in my understanding, I feel if and at all it is affecting, there needs to be a one on one communication to understand that what is the root cause, because once you understand what the root cause is, then you can probably take actions, plan ahead and see where things can be helpful for the employee and also for the company.

So there always has to be this balance. And that only comes with communication and a very open communication.

[00:19:59] Chris Hudson: I’m constantly amazed at the people that, I guess the amount of change, there’s always change, right? There’s new people on the team. There’s the company’s going a different way. There’s a restructure. There’s a new competitor. There’s something happening in the market.

There’s always something going on. And I’m always amazed at people’s adaptability in one way, but also at the same time, how constrained it can feel at times when you’re confronted with something that you’re not really expecting. So have you come across any ways to handle some of the more unexpected things that happen within business?

[00:20:29] Ishani Nigam: Yes of course, there have been multiple situations where in, you want to kind of share some innovative ideas, or you want to introduce something new that you feel would work well. And oftentimes it is either kind of neglected, or it has not taken forward. I think the only the couple of things that one can keep in mind to really see that the suggestions that you’re giving, they are being implemented is first thing from the perspective of maybe let’s say the CEO of the company.

If I am the CEO of the company, and if someone like me, who’s bringing this concept to me, how would I think about it? Is it really in kind of interest of the company, interest of what we are doing as the phase that company is in. How much of investment does it need? The time investment, the resource investment, and also the money investment.

Is it justified? So I think be logical and also practical about the suggestions that we have in mind as the first step, I would say, because that will actually rule out a lot of things in your head to begin with, and then you go with a proper plan. I would say that don’t just go up there and just, this is the suggestion.

I mean, obviously, when you brainstorming just an idea, but think through things and, kind of give them a picture that who can be involved, what it would require and how it would look like. So make it easy for them when you want to get something done from someone, it would be very easy for them to say yes, if you make it easier for them to say yes or no.

So that’s the approach that one must have. So I think that a certain things that I have learned along the way that I probably would use as a strategy. If someone would like to kind of think about going ahead and, If you want to suggest something and see if that can be implemented. So I think being logical and practical is very important when it comes to that.

Yeah.

[00:22:17] Chris Hudson: You’re right. It’s often much easier to say no, if you’re not presenting the facts or, if you’re just presenting it a certain way and the people, CEO, whoever it is, the senior leadership, they’re not expecting it. And then all of a sudden it’s a surprise and then they’re caught off guard and they feel pressure to make a decision and it’s probably going to be no. So yeah, a bit of preparation, like getting into their head and actually understanding what it is they’re trying to achieve themselves will position it differently, which is really great.

[00:22:39] Ishani Nigam: It is as simple as speaking the language of the person you want to communicate with. So if you get that nerve, you get their language, you understand where they’re coming from. You know that where they’re headed. What is their vision, where they’re really gonna tap into in the next phase, what they’re really, kind of aiming for? If you can somehow bring those things and connect with the idea, you know, you kind of, suggesting that would actually help the idea to, it will give a boost. And actually that idea would come in limelight because that is aligned with what is happening in the company at that point in time. And that would actually propel things in a good direction.

[00:23:18] Chris Hudson: Yeah. I mean, there’s an assumption in business that most people are just used to, people talking a lot and just talking and talking about the things they want to achieve, but actually the flip side of that and what you’re pointing out is that listening is such an important part of understanding the language of the people that you’re going to be selling something to, or presenting to, or even talking to. And if you’re not talking in their language and you’re talking in your own, then it won’t come across. Do you feel like language is, has been a barrier at any point, through either your career or through some of the stories that you’ve heard about?

[00:23:50] Ishani Nigam: Yeah, in stories, I would say, so not particularly in my experience so far, and by language, I would, I would kind of like to emphasise the way someone understands something, not specifically the language barrier, but yes at some point to come back to the language part, maybe understanding the technical jargons or maybe the term of a culture where you are probably working if you’ve kind of migrated to some new place.

That’s actually something that if you jump on early on, that would be quite useful for someone. Regarding stories Let’s see. I think I was very fortunate to interview people from really diverse regions. And there definitely was one story where the person really had to train themselves a lot to speak in a certain language just so that they can communicate their wonderful idea that they did.

And it did really take off. So for them, language was the barrier for them. But then they did accept that, they worked on it and they kept working on it until, it really gave them the pathway. It opened the doors for them for that, what they really wanted to do. So I think, yes, definitely language at certain point in time for certain people, it definitely is a barrier.

And I think in from both ways, I would say, whichever part of country that you’re in but more than the actual language that we talk about any, maybe probably English or Hindi, Turkish or French, if you understand the language of persons heart and mind, that is something if you can really pinpoint, then that really helps you go for further in your business or any sort of relationship and that is very, very helpful.

[00:25:23] Chris Hudson: I’ve got family from Germany and there are always examples or stories of situations where the language like wasn’t the thing, people were talking and trying to communicate with each other when they didn’t understand what they were talking about, but yet they still managed to smile and laugh and get on with each other and that kind of thing.

So I think if you can communicate, outside of your spoken word and actually, with your heart and with your whole self, then obviously you can achieve quite a lot too, because people can see that you’re passionate and that you’re interested in something and they can believe in that. It creates a sense of understanding for what it is you value.

If you can show that, that side to yourself, I believe.

[00:25:58] Ishani Nigam: That’s so true, Chris, and I’d like to kind of add something over here. The genuine connection between humans, to human being or any sort of, interest that they have any sort of, opinion that they might have or about anything, maybe let’s say cricket or sports or they enjoy watching cinema or something, or even about life or about politics, if you have a genuine conversation with someone, you do understand what kind of a person that the person is, and it really opens the door for connection networking and a lot more other things. So I think the genuine connections really help you in many ways. So it’s nice to kind of go out and, to kind of really meet and chat with people.

[00:26:39] Chris Hudson: Yeah. Yeah. I mean,

There’s that saying around being interested as opposed to interesting because

[00:26:44] Ishani Nigam: Yeah, that’s right.

[00:26:45] Chris Hudson: you’re taking an active interest in somebody else. And I think that there’s also another conversation I wouldn’t mind hearing your thoughts on this, which is around probably some of the generational shifts and generational differences that we see in the workforce today.

And that there are a lot of badges going out about, old white men, basically, running the world. Yeah I just wanted to think about, what it means for the younger generation, how the voice of the younger generation can be heard more adequately, really through, through business.

Do you have a point of view there on how younger generation can make it work for themselves, but also how businesses can make it work better for younger generations?

[00:27:18] Ishani Nigam: That’s quite an interesting question, Chris, because very interestingly, I was doing a deep dive on Gen Z uh, recently. I just recently interviewed a couple of people on my podcast who are into the youth development and empowerment industry and what they have really pointed out, and it’s really interesting is that we don’t need to fix the new generation you need to kind of nurture them, polish them, first understand who they are, what they are, what they want, and then, see how you can come together and work. So when I was saying what really works for the younger generations, the Gen Z we’re speaking about in particular, they are people who are very purpose driven and purpose led, and they love collaboration, they love co-creation, they’re passionate about a lot of things, climate change about financial education about having a life where they are running their life in every sense.

And they will do what they want to in the way they want to, and they are not here to kind of listen to anything that doesn’t really make sense to them. So for a generation who is looking for a lot of flexibility and for a lot of purpose in their work with the people that they work, they also very big on the company culture. They are very big on what the company values are. So if you are looking to collaborate with the young generation and absorb them completely in your company, it means that there has to be a mindset shift from the people who are recruiting them. And they really like co-creating and collaborating.

So I think that’s the start, you know, you kind of try and know them. And if you want to really retain them, I don’t know. I mean, I’ve heard a lot of things about people saying that Gen Z’s attention span is like really low, which is true. I have actually read it’s eight seconds if you can’t hold them for more longer than eight seconds.

[00:29:13] Chris Hudson: That’s not bad. Yeah.

[00:29:14] Ishani Nigam: Yeah. But let’s look at the positive sides of things. If that’s how people looking at things, they are doers. They are actually, they are the generation which has almost 70 percent of the Gen Z generation. They are already an entrepreneurial mindset. They are born with that, with the tech that they have.

They are very, very used to kind of the tech and to scale things from the very get go for them. They have the confidence to do that. And because they have the confidence to do that, so if you kind of tap into the right mind, the places with them in the mindset, it would really definitely work for the company.

So I think yes, understanding them really understanding them and valuing them and respecting someone’s thought process and mindset at that level would really help them be open up with other people in the company and maybe work together for things.

[00:30:04] Chris Hudson: I’m glad I asked the question because you gave a really good answer. So thank you but yeah, I’m just thinking about how much of the world of work and the way in which companies run is maybe then a little bit broken because it feels like some of those things need to be reinvented because you’re thinking about maybe the recruitment process that’s just sprung to mind.

I’m thinking about, okay, so a hiring manager or somebody who’s managing a team realises one day that they have a gap, right? So they write a job description, which is based on the gap they’re trying to fill. And then they give it to their recruitment team who isn’t them, but it’s their team that are managing the recruitment process.

And then they go and find 150 CVs and resumes and they go through an application process. And it’s all very much aligned around that specific need. So I get why is that case? But for, if you’re Gen Z and you’re coming in and you want it to align very much to what it is you’re interested in, and they’re going to come in and want to do that. Then it might be that there are more mismatches happening because the hiring managers are being too prescriptive, you know the younger generations are obviously trying to find something else in their work.

Yeah, it’s just an idea to explore another time maybe, but is there another way of doing that? Is there another way of the business actually working more in tune with the younger generation and what the needs of the younger generation are?

[00:31:18] Ishani Nigam: If I can evaluate a human being from, from the psychology of human being from any generation

[00:31:24] Chris Hudson: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:31:25] Ishani Nigam: At the end of the day, it’s about what is the goal or purpose both these people in the room are in for? If that is not aligned, everything else wouldn’t make sense.

If my goal and your goal today is the same, which is we will work together in our own ways to make it a big hit for the people who are here to listen to us because we believe in that. Now, if that goal did not align anything that you ask me, I wouldn’t be really seeing the point of it and wouldn’t be really giving an honest answer to it.

So, I think I’m not sure if I can answer the question that or maybe, I think we’re just kind of voicing that out. You were pondering what if we approach things from this angle, that’s why it is so important that at the level of recruitment, and I think a lot of people are doing that these days.

They kind of really want to check the vibe as the new generation says you want to check if they fit the company culture more than that, more even before that. Does the person who’s come for the job and the company, do their goals align? Does that really mean something to that person?

Because if yes, then the person can bring different perspective to actually get that goal going for you. And that would be actually helpful. It’s like, what’s the why of the company and the person coming together?

[00:32:39] Chris Hudson: Yeah, I love that. And I think that the goal is the unifier, but the journey and coming back to what we’re saying is the way that you can go is different, but you can end up in the same place. And that’s why, diversity of thought and bringing in different perspectives and having in my world of design, you’re thinking about how to bring I guess, a broader set of people together around the same problem but because of the fact that it’s going to bring so many different ideas and you almost got to be quite deliberate about that to make sure that it happens otherwise you can quite easily end up in your own space where you’re hiring people that are just like you and you’re only getting the answers back that you’re expecting.

It’s very different and I see so many people fall into that trap within teams, because it’s just a natural bias, you’re not aware of it. It’s unconscious bias and you’re able to one day hire somebody and you just hire somebody that’s exactly like you, which never gets anyone any further.

You get on with it, but it’s, yeah, it’s not that helpful. I’m just thinking about other things so just in terms of Gen Z that feels like, they’ve got very specific ideas and philosophies and values in terms of what they’re dreaming and what they, what they want to aim for.

It feels like they could have a lot, like an early fix on that before most of us in our, thirties, forties, whatever, still figuring out what we’re going to do, but they’re in and on it like very early. So that’s a really big change. I think.

[00:33:53] Ishani Nigam: Yes, yes, for sure. I am definitely working around with a couple of Gen Zs. And they are very upfront about what they want to do, very confident about what the next plan is. And they’re always coming up with a lot of ideas of how to maybe take forward or some things.

So I think it’s not a bad idea to give them a patient hearing when it’s possible to kind of hear what they’re going to do next, what they’re thinking. And if you can ask them just one question, how do you think this is aligned to our goal for the next quarter, or how will it work out?

So if you can question and in their own answers, they’ll find what’s working, what’s not working.

[00:34:32] Chris Hudson: Hmm.

[00:34:33] Ishani Nigam: That’s one way of getting and it’s not like you’re trapping someone. It’s like you are having a real meaningful conversation over there because you’re also trying to in build an inculcate a way of thinking through the processes.

So the next time when they do this, they will first probably question themselves, oh does this make sense? Does it align with something? And sometimes if it doesn’t hurt a bit too much, I think it’s okay to let them experiment because you never know how it would kind of really help you.

So I think having an open mind from the other end is also very important to kind of let them have that flexibility of doing what they really want to. It is again our job to also make sure that they understand the practicalities of the timelines, the budgets, and I think that’s the learning process. So I would say this is something that probably in my personal experience that I’ve worked through and besides the work, which I feel that they can anyway, anyone can learn the skills and the work.

I always try and let them kind of help them or share or mentor. In a way that in a professional setting, how they can really quickly get their work done and how it would be really professional for them to be very, very, very accurate about things that they’re talking about and yeah, how they can probably stand out.

So just a very quick and very small example that when I had the chance to kind of lead the first person, I let them know immediately, like when you’re coming to a meeting and if it is, say, if you’re saying it’s a 30 minute meeting, be prepared about that it is a 30 minute meeting.

And if you’re the one who’s organising it, have the agenda ready, send it out to the people, have the timelines ready and it is your job, everyone else’s job to complete and finish everything in that amount of time because meetings are supposed to be a place where you give important and only important updates or what the ideas or whatever needs to be communicated they need to go and get the work done.

So that’s like a small example, you know, how you can probably, mentor them and kind of inculcate those things that probably would help them. I can share this from my experience? I’m not sure if that really helps or answers your question.

[00:36:44] Chris Hudson: Yeah, a couple of things is that, and obviously the meeting example that you gave, I’d love to know how many meetings you’ve been to that didn’t run like that, but

[00:36:51] Ishani Nigam: Initially a couple but I think since the time I’ve been here, not really, maybe still a couple, I would say, but yeah the ones that’s something that I think a lot of people are always trying to do that, but when it’s something, if it’s a meeting that I’m leading, I am always trying to make it a point that it has to be within the timeline because it actually teaches you something, which is when I’m coming to the meeting, I’m going to gloss over everything that I have to say. And if I only have three minutes, then I, my skills of picking only the important things come into force, the editing skills, the summarising skills, all those things comes into the force and which these are quite important skills. So this is just a practice.

[00:37:31] Chris Hudson: Oh, yeah, I don’t think anyone teaches that ever. How to be in a meeting, how to do the right thing, how to lead a meeting, how to run it properly, it’s something that you can quite easily pick up the bad habits as you say but yeah, it’s something that needs to be fixed.

So many meetings. The other question I had was maybe around I mean we’re talking about Gen Z and the fact that and the fact that their thoughts and aspirations are quite well formed at an early age. And another part that ties into that point, which is really around how much of yourself you bring into work and how much you should share within the work environment, because I think that the boundaries between your personal life and work life seem to be becoming less clear, there’s a lot of talk around obviously, neurodiversity, gender diversity, there’s inclusivity and, you know, a lot of, probably more personal stories that come into the workplace now. It’s a place of vulnerability. I’d love it if you had a perspective on that in some way based on your experience and what’s your overall impression of the world of work in that sense?

[00:38:31] Ishani Nigam: That’s a lovely question and quite interesting. And I think I do have a perspective on that with my own experience as well. So personally, I feel I’m someone who wouldn’t like to kind of open up with anyone and everyone in a professional setting or even like if I’m socialising, I have a couple of friends. I wouldn’t like to open about everything about my personal life to everyone. That’s something I feel it’s my own world and it’s for me and very, very few important people just like for yourself as well for anyone who’s listening to us today. That should not stop me from being a human, a humanly person if someone else is sharing something.

In the official setting, specifically with Gen Z, I wouldn’t want to generalise, but I think the experiences that I have, they are very open about everything in their life. And in a way, I appreciate that, because that means that they are quite easy with everything but that should not compel someone, for example myself to kind of share everything, if they shared about something about their family, their parents, the sister, their boyfriend, it doesn’t mean that I am obligated to do that. So that is my stand on that. But if someone is sharing something, I would definitely give it a listening ear if they would want to, for example, one of my colleagues, she just came up to me and she wanted to kind of chat.

I could see that she’s not looking okay. And I did ask her out of concern. Is everything okay? You want to share something? So she did open up to me and she was going through some challenges and we spoke about it. And since then, she thought that I’m a person that she could probably come and confide in and probably just share so that sort of kind of continues until then, but I do make it a point that it doesn’t kind of go in a very personal zone and I kind of make it very objective.

I listened to the story. I understand the emotions. I empathise at the end of the day if I want to understand whether she is, or he or she or whoever it is. Are they just for me to give a listening ear? Or they’re really looking out for a solution and an answer. So first understanding that. So I would do that.

And if there is an advice they need, I would, at the end of the day, the advice would be very objective. That can equip them to handle the situation and not really pinpointing at a particular person or a thing, this is how I would take. I wouldn’t want to go very personal, but I am also a human and I would give a listening if someone really wants to and yeah, be very professional about it from my end.

[00:40:52] Chris Hudson: No, I think that’s great. And yeah, I’m also wondering though sort of before that in how you connect with people, not you specifically but anyone, how we should be connecting with our work colleagues and our teammates really, is it that we feel we need to be more open and maybe more vulnerable to let people know that they can tell us that stuff too, do you feel like you have to volunteer some of these stories about yourself and, some people that are talking quite personally about their own experiences in life or things that happened their preferences and pronouns and everything is coming out to a very personal state. So I’m just wondering if that then opens up the conversation around almost an acceptance for that connection being there, do you think it gives the signal out to people that they can come and talk to you when they can, when they want to.

[00:41:36] Ishani Nigam: Yeah I think if someone is being very open about everything and I’ve actually kind of experienced this, I’ve seen in a couple of places where I worked earlier that in a team, if a majority of people are kind of bringing their personal life there, they are sharing just because you know, they are the people that they work with.

There is a sort of an expectation that what’s happening in your life share something sort of a thing. Again, I said, that means that that’s not the kind of place that you want to be in. There are different sort of company cultures. You see where you fit in.

There’s no right, no wrong. It’s okay to open up. also do open up, but there is still , about kind of a boundary or the limit to which I would kind of open up,

[00:42:15] Chris Hudson: I think yeah, you’ve gotta find what’s right for you, haven’t you? It’s not like a single rule. And actually sharing everything wouldn’t go down so well either. But I reckon that there are certain rituals that you can look for as a marker of culture and as to whether you feel you’re comfortable within that culture.

So from the point of view after a weekend, everyone’s going to ask, how was your weekend? Did you have fun at the weekend or the first conversations that happen every day are usually about something that’s happened earlier in the week or the night before or the weekend or

And how people answer those questions, if you listen to them, you can tell quite a lot about the culture from how open people are being in those conversations. So I always think that’s just a helpful level of understanding. If you’re not comfortable with that level of conversation, then you don’t have to go into the detail about yourself, obviously.

But if you are, then obviously you can give a whole story. They can go on for a long time. I just wondered I think, this is maybe a stretch on again, but I’d love to just hear your perspective on personal brand because it’s something that we’re talking about vulnerability, how much of yourself you give to the environment in which you work. And maybe a real step on from that is thinking about personal brand because some people have got very clear ideas now about how they want to represent themselves not in the workplace, but in the public domain. What do you think people can do usefully for themselves in that personal branding space? Even at a just very basic level, what are some of the things that spring to mind?

[00:43:29] Ishani Nigam: Yes, this is a very, very favourite topic of mine, personal branding. It is very important to understand that what is your purpose behind creating a personal brand. If it is just professional, if you want to kind of stand out in the professional space, then it’s very clear that, you kind of sit and understand that what sort of industry that you’re going to be talking about, or how you represent your experiences in that industry how will you show up in that industry via different social media and what kind of personal branding are you kind of building by different social media.

But if your purpose is kind of really being yourself in the sense just showing your utmost true person that you are back home with your spouses, with your kids or with your friends, that’s also fine. I mean, it’s everyone a person’s choice. And if that’s what you want to do, then I think once then you be true to that.

So be true to whatever goal that you are choosing via personal branding, that’s to begin with.

I think that’s how I would look at it. For me, it’s more about kind of showing up in a professional space. So for me, the personal brand is more about kind of sharing about what talents that I have got at, at this point in time, or what interest I have at this point in time, what experiences I bring along what I really talk about, the kind of community I’d like to connect with and I share a lot about a lot of things that happens in Adelaide. It’s been a really good time for me in Adelaide since the time I’ve been here opposed to a lot of suggestions or ideas that I had received before coming here, but it’s been a great time for me.

So I love sharing even what other people are doing so that’s still in a professional setting and professional space.

I have an Instagram handle as well, and I actually have a personal Instagram handle and my podcast Instagram handle because I soon started realising the kind of audience that I’m trying to reach through my podcast, the Instagram handle.

It’s not really aligned with what I’m doing on my personal handle because my personal handle is , just me being myself, putting dancing videos or putting just fun videos, just dubbing something that’s just for fun. And I don’t mind being fun. I can extract that element because I am still the same person and put that to a useful way.

In my other Instagram handle, I can still kind of shoot my videos. I can utilise the things that I am shooting, speaking, interviewing, and I can do that all that on my other Instagram account. So being more purposeful and thoughtful is my take on how I do my personal branding.

Something that doesn’t really serve purpose to the wider audience that I’m trying to kind of help and reach out. I kind of don’t find it a lot of sense and kind of sharing about that. So that’s how I think my personal brand has shaped and evolved as well because earlier it was all about sometimes I’m just putting my selfie, having so much fun and then I’m eating and putting selfies. I’m like, how is that helping anyone who’s looking at this post today. I mean, a lot of people are trying to live their life with the best of their capacities, you know, and you are using some sort of platform, be yourself, but make it something useful for the person add value for the person that you’re sharing for.

So I think being intentional in your personal branding is my take, that’s what I would say.

[00:46:53] Chris Hudson: Yeah. I mean,

That’s really useful. And it maybe goes some way to answer the next question, which is around probably who should have a personal brand and does everyone need one and should everyone in the world of work have one? Do you think?

[00:47:04] Ishani Nigam: Wow, that’s a very interesting and a subjective question, I would say well, I think in today’s time, if you want to reach out to more people, and if you really have that sort of a goal in your head, again, I’m going back to what your purpose is, what is your why, if you really have a why, and that can be addressed in a professional space, if you want to do something, then I think having a person branding is, It’s quite essential because then people ultimately work with people.

And if they don’t like you, if they don’t know you, if you can’t show them what you’re telling them. It’s a little challenging in today’s time because a lot of people have a lot of options out there. So having a personal brand on the right platform for whatever is your chosen platform, for some it may be LinkedIn, for some it may be Instagram, for some it may be TikTok, whatever it is for you, I definitely would say it wouldn’t hurt.

making one if you have a goal to kind of reach. But if it really doesn’t concern you, I don’t think anything is, is should must in life for any one of us.

You can actually do a lot of things, probably staying in your own city, making your own personal network and connection, all the personal branding would help you reach out to a lot of more other people.

But if you are happy with that, if you’re satisfied with that, if you think your life is okay with that, and that’s okay. I really believe that nothing should be a must. Everything depends on your goal and what’s your why, why you’re doing something. But to come to, if I personally would like to kind of answer this, I would say if you have a goal in mind professionally, personally, you want to maybe reach out, stand out, let people know, show who you are before they even, you reach out to them. It’s very essential to kind of build a personal brand in that sense.

[00:48:53] Chris Hudson: Yeah. It’s a brilliant answer. Thank you. I’ll just say, as you were talking, I was thinking about the things that we both do in podcasting and just around how we get something. I mean it’s something for everybody else, but it’s also something for us, presumably as well, where I’m helping people bring their stories out into the world as are you, and I think for myself, I’m interested in people and I’m interested in the questions that we get to ask and where the conversations can go and all of that.

I think that part of that process for me is that I get to understand more about people, but also understand more about myself and how my brain works and how I respond to certain, conversation starters or responses or whatever it is. Yeah, I definitely learn a lot about myself through this process.

I’d love to know, from your point of view what your learning has been, or what’s the biggest enjoyment for you in doing some of the work that you do?

[00:49:42] Ishani Nigam: Really lovely to know that how it works for you. And it kind of resonates with me as well.

I love being in a place where I can create something which a lot of people can get value out of. And I have been a professional Bollywood dancer.

I’ve been on stage. I have done a couple of public speaking sessions back in India. And I would say I like being on the stage, probably in the spotlight. I don’t know if I would like to very honestly tell myself. So this way I’m able to create a platform where I am interacting with people, getting to know about them, but in the process also.

Getting to do what I really like is probably creating a platform and using the audiovisual medium to do what I really love, it has the angle of probably being in the spotlight. Also, being able to communicate, to speak and just enjoy the conversation with the person. This is the most exciting part of the entire process for me from pre production to production to post production. This is the part where I am kind of chatting with someone, getting to know their story. And it is also like a weekly therapy session for me.

So not all days are so good that I am in the mindset that, oh wow. I’m gonna do a session today. But before every session I have that mindset shift, like two minutes time that I keep, if I’m like really drained out of the day that I’m doing this for a purpose and the person who’s coming on board, I want to make this experience the best experience for them. That is my goal when people come on it, because if they are happy, they are saying things that they mean, and they’re enjoying the people who are listening to it, they will enjoy it will be like a really good session. So I really amp up myself for that. And I feel, come on, just get ready.

This is your show. Just imagine you’re like the Oprah Winfrey show, you’re getting your makeup done, you have a spotlight. This is your show, you’re like in a TV network show. This is what I feed my brain with the days I get really difficult for me. So I think for me, it’s sort of living my dream that I’ve created for myself and I did not wait for the opportunity to come by and hopefully the things that I’m kind of really wanting to might come by sometime in the future, but I really enjoying loving doing this.

And on the days where it is. a little challenging. I tell myself that why I’m doing this. So for me, it’s sort of a therapy session for me. It’s to kind of share the talent that I feel I want to kind of keep nurturing and also to love of kind of listening from so many stories, just sitting at one place kind of heard 125 stories and I learned so much about human life, so much about success, failure.

And so much about that if you do not have the conviction and you do not believe in yourself, how things can go wrong and not wrong, but how things might not go the way that you want. So I always have this and say this, that there will be two parts in life. The one where everyone else wants you to go, because it’s a secure one, or you feel like oh I should be doing this. The other one is one day you want to go even that and that’s very challenging. But on both the roads, you will face challenges and you will be unhappy on certain days. But which one is worth crying for? I’m going to cry on this road, I’m going to cry on this road as well.

But what is my motivation to keep a purpose to keep going ahead even after crying on a certain night. So that’s how I think I would think about it.

[00:53:10] Chris Hudson: Yeah, it’s funny. I mean we do the things we do but we don’t always talk about why we do them And I think that a big theme from today’s conversation was really around the why and people talk about finding their why a lot, but actually finding the time and the space in your week or whatever it is, start with something small and in a really just a short gap of time, you’re saying that you’re able to just decide what you’re going to do in five minutes after you’re made redundant before you caught the bus, got to find your time for that kind of stuff to happen but it’s not like this big, I don’t know. You’re not going to spend three years thinking about your why. You just need to find something that, that makes sense to you probably in that moment.

[00:53:44] Ishani Nigam: Definitely.

[00:53:45] Chris Hudson: One more final piece of advice from you, maybe before we wrap, which is probably just if someone is on their way, they’re on this path or they’re on that path and, you’re noticing somebody, so say if you’re a manager or if you’re, you’ve got a friend or whoever it is, you notice that somebody’s, on their path and they’re struggling a little bit, what would be the most effective way to help them take their first step based on either your experience or some of the stories that you’ve heard about?

[00:54:08] Ishani Nigam: Definitely kind of first listen to them. That’s the first thing, you know, that, if I have to help someone first I try to listen and understand what sort of help they need. Do they really need the help or they just wanted someone to kind of vent it out? That’s the first thing. And I would really tell them that it is okay to be wherever they are, whatever they’re feeling. It’s completely okay to feel whatever you are feeling. And sometimes doing the bare minimum is actually an achievement. So you should not be beating yourself up for that. And I’ve been there as well. So if the person is coming to me and if they are like really don’t know what to do, they’re just burned out.

I will tell them that you’re doing your best. And at this point in time, except the feelings that you’re having, because that’s the first step acceptance is the first step. And then probably take a short break. Whatever it might look like for you. Take a bit of a break. Reflect if this is a situational problem or is it actually a problem?

So kind of understanding what your problem really is. That’s the second step and when you come to this, you’re done with the second step. The third step is please plan and take action on it. Because if you just think about it and you don’t execute any of those things that you want to bring about the change, it would really never happen.

And you will be in the same situation that you’re in. So yeah, giving a good listening ear, trying to actually figure out what the problem really is and then plan ahead and please act on it.

[00:55:36] Chris Hudson: Alright. Well, thank you so much, Ishani. I’d love to maybe just finish with a few more words from you as to where people might be able to contact you and obviously tell people where they can hear your show as well. Instagram, if you like, whatever you want to share, but yeah, I’m sure people would love to say hi, maybe ask a question as well.

[00:55:51] Ishani Nigam: Thank you. Thank you so much, Chris. I’m really grateful for the opportunity that you’ve given me. It was such a lovely chat and I was really looking forward to it. I hope I have somewhere, I don’t know, some sort of value for your listeners today. They can definitely reach out to me on LinkedIn. You just need to type Ishani Nigam and I would happily accept your request.

And you can also reach out to me on my Instagram handle, which is @myfirststepever_IN, which is my initials. So that’s my Instagram handle. And yeah, if you would like to kind of listen to a lot more stories, you can maybe tap into My First Step Ever podcast on Spotify or on Apple or Google podcasts.

So yeah, and YouTube, I’m definitely on YouTube as well. If you’d like to kind of look at the videos of the podcast, which is again, My First Step Ever. So it’s simple. It’s My First Step Ever.

[00:56:46] Chris Hudson: Got it. All right. Well, thank you so much Ishani. Lovely to have you on the show and you’ve been a wonderful guest and thank you again for your time.

[00:56:53] Ishani Nigam: Thank you. It was my pleasure. That was really interesting. I really loved it. Thank you.

[00:56:57] Chris Hudson: Okay, so that’s it for this episode. If you’re hearing this message, you’ve listened all the way to the end. So thank you very much. We hope you enjoyed the show. We’d love to hear your feedback. So please leave us a review and share this episode with your friends, team members, leaders if you think it’ll make a difference.

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