Employee Engagement: Fostering loyalty in an unpredictable culture

“I think there are times to go in hard, be really forceful, drive change. If you can see a problem, you really need to state that and work towards driving that change.”
Carly Neubauer

In this episode you’ll hear about

• Identifying and aligning your personal ‘why’: Gaining clarity on your personal purpose and motivational values, and ensuring alignment with an organisation’s values.Organisational weak spots: Keys to spotting areas of weakness within a business and making steps toward change no matter the position you’re in
• Addressing toxic workplace behaviour: How to identify the root causes of toxicity and frustration in a workplace and manage the greater problems that may be evidenced
• Balancing commercial focus with culture: Maintaining a healthy, thriving culture without sacrificing business outcomes
• Recruitment & employee retention: Ways to manage turnover and associated costs and prioritise employee experience for retention

Key links

WIIN Global

IMA

Australian Loyalty Association 

Elevate Loyalty 

About our guest
Carly Neubauer is the Co-Founder and Director of Elevate Loyalty and Pay2Elevate, delivering digital payment technology solutions to the loyalty industry. Holding additional roles as Co-Founder of WiiN Global, Board member of IMA MEAPAC, Representative of the ALA, and 2024 host of Let’s Talk Loyalty podcast, Carly is actively engaged in the loyalty, incentives and payment industry locally and globally.

To date Carly has developed and managed more than 30+ consumer and employee loyalty and incentive programs in the insurance, energy, retail and finance sectors.

About our host

Our host, Chris Hudson, is a Teacher, Experience Designer and Founder of business transformation coaching and consultancy Company Road.

Company Road was founded by Chris Hudson, who saw over-niching and specialisation within corporates as a significant barrier to change.

Every team approaches transformation in their own way, also bringing in their own partners to help. And while they’re working towards the same organisational goal, it’s this over-fragmentation that stunts rapid progress at a company-wide level.

Having worked as a marketer, transformation leader, teacher and practitioner of design thinking for over 20 years, both here in Australia and internationally, Chris brings a unique, deep and ‘blended’ skillset that will cohere and enable your teams to deliver ambitious and complex change programs.

Transcript
Chris Hudson: Hi there and welcome to the Company Road Podcast. I’d love to introduce my next guest who is Carly Neubauer and we had a great chat today. She works in the loyalty arena for setting up incentives and rewards for many commercial businesses around Australia and more broadly as well. She’s got her own business.

She’s worked through a number of organisations and associations now. She’s a co founder of WiiN Global, which is a women’s network. Board member of IMA, and she’s also representing the Australian Loyalty Association as well. So we had a really good chat around loyalty as a theme, what it takes for loyalty to be established within culture, within a company culture, but also more broadly, what behaviours can be considered in really trying to understand what can be done by companies to keep people, motivate people, how you as a person can navigate through some of those tricky situations, what you can learn from others, what to do, what not to do.

So really interesting chat. Very useful for a lot of people. I’m sure listening to the podcast and I hope you enjoy it. Thank you.

Carly, welcome and thank you so much for coming on to the Company Road podcast. You’ve been a guest that I’ve been hoping would come on the show at some point ever since our first meeting, and you’ve got a really highly decorated work history and it looks like you’ve moved masterfully from sales and promotions type roles through to GM, commercial, leadership, through to association, board and committee roles. Founder roles, businesses you’ve started. It just tells me that you’ve been extremely busy for one, but also very successful obviously in most of what you do so I’d love to just dig into some of your experiences today and hear about how you’ve overcome some of the challenges within organisations, other people’s organisations and your own along the way. Yeah, what struck me the most about you when we first met was, was not only that you’re a brilliant presenter, but also an empathic leader and really a people person at heart. So maybe we could start there and just hear your perspective on what makes you, you and what makes you tick in a way at work.

[00:02:01] Carly Neubauer: Hi, thank you. What an awesome intro. Thank you so much, Chris. I think from a work perspective, It’s more a mindset I personally have and a belief around how workplaces should be constructed. I love the saying, if you build it, they will come. I think it’s not just about building it and building a workplace, it’s more around that intent to which you build it. Many places at the moment, I know are having a real challenge in the market around how to handle workplace flexibility home versus office time and this balancing act and that’s really, really tough. It’s a tough decision for management. But I do strongly believe that the onus is on management to create a space where employees feel really secure and valued in the place they want to be, because I think in turn, this will drive innovation.

It drives their initiative and people want to be at work and engage with their colleagues. Giving people something to work for, a meaning and a purpose and not just their day to day tasks can be can be really, really important.

[00:02:55] Chris Hudson: How do you feel you personally have either fitted into that or have looked to push the agenda in areas where you, kind of were aspiring for that or you were hoping it was there, but it perhaps wasn’t? How have you made it work for yourself?

[00:03:07] Carly Neubauer: I think there’s a few things, right? Looking at it from a leadership role or a C level and some of the ASX listed companies that I’ve worked with, you can get really bogged down in what’s our strategic change, what’s our cultural drive, what is our ESG planning, bottom line, return on investment.

Now, this all has a time and a place. Please don’t get me wrong. There’s a time to formalise and that’s very important. However, I think at the end of the day I take a more simple approach. We’re dealing with people and we’re dealing with a big group of people. So what do we need to do to get the best out of these people?

What sort of environment do we need to structure where these people feel great, they want to be, but then they bring their best to the business because in turn this benefits the business, right? How do we create a place where that happens? In turn, we should see good improvement in the business.

We get the best out of everybody. And I think by doing that, we see sustainable growth for the business. And in a lot of cases by creating this and bringing something that they really believe in and they want to show up for money will have nothing to do with their drive. It might play a part in the decision making around where they work and how hard they work and the way they work.

But, you know, you can find really miserable people on high salaries and they’re not really driven, but by bringing something, a purpose or a meaning to your workplace and creating that people will show up every day and put in every day.

[00:04:23] Chris Hudson: Maybe we can reflect. I mean, obviously you’ve had a number of roles through your career. We’ll take a step back and maybe walk through it a little bit if we can. But something that just indicates how you’ve gone about finding purpose for yourself and maybe others who are listening to the show will learn from that in one way or another.

[00:04:37] Carly Neubauer: The way I think about it is the business you work in, I approach it and I think about it as if it was my own business. So, currently, yes, I run my own business. But even in an employment role. Think about it and take responsibility as if it’s your own. There’s no reason you can’t still look for great change, drive innovation and improvement and treat it as if it was your own. Treat money within a business as if it’s your own, whether it’s expenses and is revenue coming in.

So really take that approach of taking the responsibility on, and the part you play in the business is really important and that creates some value back for you as well.

[00:05:12] Chris Hudson: There’s an interesting area there which is that, well, I think the point to make is that not everyone treats the business that they work in as their own, obviously. And I’m sure you’ve seen that. Do you feel that the people that do take it on as their own are either, obviously they’re more invested, but do you feel that they’re more successful than the people that just turn up and do what they do and go home?

[00:05:29] Carly Neubauer: Yeah, absolutely. That employee drive factor. You can keep going back to it, but when employees want to be in their employment, their workplace, you can generally measure the cultural status, I believe, by the level of employee drive are they bringing new ideas each day, each week? Are they bringing ideas to improve the product or the service or whatever it might be?

You can kind of get a gauge if someone’s coming up and bringing in their best and their ideas each day or week, whatever that might be. That’ll give you a bit of a litmus test on what’s the culture because people that are lacking motivation won’t be doing that. And if that switches off, that’s your job to ask the question, why have they disengaged?

Why are they not bringing that each day? Now there can be personal to that as well. I get that. But in a lot of cases, people that are in roles that they want to be in, and they are I guess excited by they’ll bring their best and they’ll bring new ideas.

[00:06:20] Chris Hudson: Yeah. I mean, that’s brilliant, isn’t it? When it works out well, because the, the ideas come from unexpected places sometimes and you can obviously evolve your culture when that happens, as opposed to it being a very, more of a controlled environment, I would say, one that’s determined from the top and it’s quite procedural, quite functional at times when your culture is just running on the scent of an oily rag, it’s just kind of there because it has to be there and it’s there and it’s foundational, structural, administrative, I want to say, but it’s not really doing much else to connect people, to motivate people, to get anything more.

Yeah. Do you find that as well?

[00:06:54] Carly Neubauer: Yes. Sometimes I think that, if you have a team of 10, 15 people, you bring together a group of really varied personality types, work ethics, experiences, background, et cetera. And as a manager, a really big challenge can be, how do I get the best out of people that are individuals? Not everybody’s the same or not the same thing will drive each person and don’t expect that it ever would. I guess this is where business change can come into play, right?

Everyone will take that change in a different way and whether they agree or disagree, it may be different, but as the manager, it’s identifying, okay, who’s in my team? What are the key factors that make this person tick and then to get the best out of them? And then you’re the one that adapts to them, not the other way around.

I think a lot of, this is my opinion, but a lot of management can be, well, we manage, we’re the bosses, they work to us. Whereas I really strongly believe it works the other way around. A really good manager can adapt to the different people that are working with them. To get the best out of them, and then everybody wins at the end of the day.

[00:07:52] Chris Hudson: I think there’s a, there’s responsibilities in there as a manager where you have to obviously be aware of who you’re working with and the environment within which you’re working, but how do you know which of those individuals, if it’s individualism, that can either shine or it can be a complete distraction to, to what needs to happen in the day to day. How do you navigate some of that? Because obviously if you elevate the wrong people, the wrong behaviours, then it’s going to send you in the completely wrong direction, right?

[00:08:17] Carly Neubauer: Yeah, absolutely. And look, I love bringing an open style workplace where people can bring their ideas, share innovative thoughts and create a space for that. But on the flip side, that doesn’t mean everybody gets a yes. It doesn’t mean everybody, we agree with everybody. And I think as adults, we should all be able to take that on the chin and go, look, I brought something today.

Maybe I didn’t get that through. Maybe that didn’t quite work. And I didn’t get my yesterday, but that’s okay. I can take a no like a grown up as well. So that’s okay. Hopefully, you know, you’re creating a vibe where people feel good about bringing along their thoughts and their input, but you don’t always get your win that day, but, you know, work on it, improve on it and come back again and bring the next one.

So hopefully there’s some sort of level of balance of, you know, you’re open to everything, but you can’t ever say yes to everything.

[00:09:06] Chris Hudson: There’s a really interesting behaviour and observation and usually a bit of a complaint that comes out in, as parents as well. We’re often finding that, you know, our kids are going into competitive situations and some parents are saying this is great. My son or, whoever it is, my daughter, she took part in this race. She came in ninth, she’s still got a ribbon and everyone’s still happy. And then you get the other parents are saying, well, what’s all this about? My son won the race or my daughter won the race. Everyone got the same thing and I don’t really understand. So there’s a kind of subculture and it’s dividing opinion around whether just taking part is okay or whether just winning the race is, is what people should be aiming for. What do you think about that?

[00:09:44] Carly Neubauer: I’ll tell you my view. No, we can’t all win every time. Life is not like that, and yes, I can see why I’ll try and be a bit diplomatic. Sometimes, kids need a mini win to push them a bit further. Okay, sure. I do think we should let them win and lose and they need to learn to win and lose at the end of the day, because that is life as they grow up, I think learning to be a really good loser is a good skill as well. And that’s nothing wrong with that. It means you push yourself harder the next time and you learn from that. There’s millions of sayings and memes around, failures take you to the next level.

So, no, we can’t all win every day and that’s okay. That makes us better and learning to do that I think is the right way to approach life and business?

[00:10:23] Chris Hudson: Can I make a really awkward sidestep to the win that is personal to you in your life? It’s not the best of most seamless joins to that topic, but we were talking about winning. It just made me think of that. You work within WiiN, which for you stands for something different.

Maybe we could hear a bit more about that.

[00:10:36] Carly Neubauer: Yes, sure. So WiiN Global actually stands for Women in Incentives Global Network, hence the short version. We are a global network of it’s a membership association for women that are working incentives, loyalty, gift cards, payments, travel, et cetera. We’ve just had our third anniversary this last week, there have been, I think we’ve hit something like a hundred different webinars over the last three years.

We’ve had multiple face to face events across the world and what it is, it’s around driving network, business relationships and support for women in the industry. And so far so good. It’s been amazing. The journey we’ve seen a huge number of business deals or networking deals happen across the world through the network.

One thing we really love and we’re proud of is the mentorship program. So we’ve got some really amazing senior, senior women across the world who’ve taken on the role of a mentor for some, you know, junior women coming through the industry and their expertise and just sharing that time has been so valuable.

So that’s something we continue. We run two sessions a year. It’s amazing.

[00:11:39] Chris Hudson: Yeah, fantastic. Sounds like really valuable work and very important, obviously, in the context of I’m sure your industry, but also more broadly for that discussion to be happening. What are some of the, if you could describe some of the key themes that you think are coming up maybe within the context of that, I think back to what it used to be like back in the day, you know, if you think about when you started out in sales promotion, incentivisation, rewards, loyalty, what’s changing in that industry, what are some of the things that needs to change?

[00:12:04] Carly Neubauer: Maybe more of that approach in the workplace that everybody does get a say. That is a big change versus more of a managerial and a junior where managers sort of sets the tone, is right. Juniors are the doers broadly. That’s something that’s really changing and I think the expectation is changing as well.

If I look at people that are much more my junior now as in age gap, that’s just inherent expectation and that’s their life in the workplace now. So as more managers, we need to adapt to the fact that people starting out in their career have this expectation of having their voice, whereas maybe when I started, it wasn’t really the same expectation.

So I think it’s a great change but it’s more now adapting to that because it’s different to when I started. So… It’s good. If anything, you can get some of the best ideas for the business from young, starting out and fresh ideas. I love it. So that’s probably a really big difference as well.

We do talk to that a lot in some of the webinars around balancing voice in meetings. It’s really important and does also go back to that point around employees feeling valued and they’ve been heard. It’s super valuable.

[00:13:09] Chris Hudson: Yeah. I mean, there’s definitely shifts in there between a management style that is, I I suppose in one way responsible and accountable for products, the end ideas the things that dictate the strategic direction for a client or an organisation and then getting that implemented versus another scenario where you’re breeding ideas and an organic sense of creation the whole time through the work that you’re doing and through all the different levels of the organisation as well.

So it’s a different skill set. One is more about facilitation of the work and getting the work done and implementation and they want because you’re the thought leader. The other one is probably more about facilitation of a creative process. What are some of the things that you’ve found work really well in that area?

[00:13:46] Carly Neubauer: Remove micromanagement is a big one. Look, there needs to be oversight as a, as a manager or owner of business. You can’t just let things go and never have any visibility, of course. But these days there are amazing tools you can use within businesses that give some transparency within a team without it being micromanagement.

That in itself can give people a bit of ownership over what they’re doing and they’re input, their output, hopefully but you’ve got that level of control because you are at the end of the day, responsible.

Yeah, look, I think that’s a seriously hard balance at times. I don’t mean that that’s an easy thing to do because you can also then give too much flexibility and leeway when someone’s not actually that engaged in their job, and I’m sure everyone’s got examples of that.

So that’s a easy for me to say or not always as easy to implement every day to day when you’ve got some employees that are really driven and others that may be a little less engaged. But I do strongly believe in not micromanaging people, and it doesn’t really get the best out of anybody.

[00:14:43] Chris Hudson: Yeah. I think when you pass the possibility onto other people and you also encourage them to take ownership of that in some way, then that in itself creates a followership of that behaviour. So anyone who sees that anybody else is capable of coming up with an idea, pitching it, implementing it, whatever it is, is going to be inspired by that. And if it’s done by somebody at a, at a, different level to what was traditionally the case, then that’s going to be helpful, in just getting people into that psychological safety of it being an environment where they can produce ideas and they can thrive from that point of view. In contrast to that, perhaps maybe we think back to what it was like when you were starting out in work and

the situations in which you were finding yourself. How did that differ?

[00:15:20] Carly Neubauer: Maybe, you know what, it can probably be a bit of, a case of where you ended up, where you were working, and the time as well. A combination of the two. My experience is early days, really hard management. As in, really firm, strong. I had very difficult to create a win style management and that probably as hard as it was then I had a lot of hard knocks and a lot of bad days.

But in hindsight, I think it was sort of the best thing ever for me in a career. Didn’t get a yes easily. I didn’t get a win easily. So when you did, it was awesome. But it was so hard to get, so I really respect the management I had, now looking back, even though it was a really hard slog at the time.

[00:16:05] Chris Hudson: Do you have a story about something that either you tried really hard at, it didn’t work out, or that you didn’t, you did try very hard at, and obviously it did work out?

[00:16:13] Carly Neubauer: Yeah, I’ve got a long list of what didn’t work out.

[00:16:15] Chris Hudson: Any of those?

[00:16:15] Carly Neubauer: One that will always stick in my mind and I know I’ve probably re-quoted this in my career since then as well, I was like really early twenties, I was leading a team, we’d worked on a major promotion rollout and I, we stuffed it up.

I can’t even remember the exact details, but I know it didn’t work.

And I remember the manager at the time, he pulled me into the office and sort of said, you’ve, you’ve, it did not. I can’t remember how he said it, but you know, you’ve really stuffed this and it was true. And he eventually said to me, but one thing I can see in your personality is you like to take it on and try and solve it all.

And that’s not necessarily the right approach when things are failing. And I’ve never forgotten this because it’s true. And if things are going completely haywire, nothing’s working or it’s looking like it’s not going to work. best thing you can do is strong, high level communication, like communicate it early, early, get in front of the problem.

Don’t try and solve it solo. And I was like, that’s so true. And I’ve never forgotten that. Whenever anything’s starting to go south, what can you do to bring more people in? How can you communicate this within the business? How can you don’t hide and try and solve solo? Get it, whether it’s more people involved or the right people involved just start to communicate as much as that might hurt your pride.

You may actually solve it and save it with others versus failing solo. I don’t know. It was just, I’ve never forgotten it.

[00:17:34] Chris Hudson: Yeah, good, good, and what happened with that? Was it not just not performing? What was the point at which you knew it wasn’t working?

[00:17:40] Carly Neubauer: Look now, I know this more now as well. Look, there were factors in it that we couldn’t have solved. So realistically we were doing a major rollout nationally with a big retail brand and there was actually some key factors in it. We wouldn’t have really been able to solve or control. They were actually out of our hands, but the mistake I made was not bringing that up earlier and sooner to maybe more senior people that could have helped solve it at a more senior level, possibly versus trying to solve it in my division. So it’s not necessarily that it itself may or may not have been fixed. Maybe someone more senior may have but it’s, I didn’t take the right actions to bring in a more senior management to assist in it or alert them or get ahead of it was probably the bigger message than the fail itself.

[00:18:24] Chris Hudson: It’s an interesting topic, isn’t it, around risk and who gets exposed to risk because people will respond to it, react to it very differently and obviously in some cases quite violently, where you’re in a corporate setting and you want people to be aware of things because they have to be across it.

You’ve got leadership, stakeholders involved and you know that something might raise an eyebrow because if they go deep into that they’re gonna find that it’s gonna be something that can just, it’s a deal breaker. It’s just going to stop you in your tracks. As an implementer, you’re trying to get the thing through with the path of least resistance, but at the same time, you know, you want their input. It’s hard to manage isn’t it because you do need them to be aware of that, but you don’t want to get them in too close to detail. Otherwise it might expose a a whole, things that will set you back. And that, that would cause more problems.

Do you find that you have to manage a lot of that yourself in terms of risk and who to bring into what type of conversation?

[00:19:09] Carly Neubauer: Yes. And look, it’s varied and it changes every time, right? The one thing I’ve taken out of that over the years since then is even saying to my team members, if anything’s ever not looking like it’s working, it’s going south. I need to be your first phone call. You tell me first, then we’re in it together.

Then we try and solve it together versus me finding out after the fact. And then it’s, oh you didn’t do something. It’s no, let’s engage in this or get together with this, or at least if I’m going to get a cranky phone call from someone else who’s because of it, I’m ready for it style of approach. So I think that that’s why I love that failure so much that it has taught me so much and how to even say to my own team, you know, trust me to be the first phone call you make when things are going south because I can handle it a lot better with you than finding out afterwards.

[00:19:56] Chris Hudson: Oh, that’s really valuable. also bridging to the point that we’re making before in and around how, you know, the, the younger and more junior, members of your team are, they’re actually taking on a lot of responsibility these days. So how do you communicate that very message?

You know, are you setting it at the front? Is that part of the onboarding? What are you doing that instills a sense of, I guess, safety to the point that they feel like they can call you?

[00:20:17] Carly Neubauer: Look I think it will depend on the size of the team. So I’m probably reflecting on a team. That’s, you know, the size 10 to 15 or so. But if you can have that one on one time, I would do it face to face. I do it individually. And again, this will depend on the size of team. So I take that on board, but if it’s possible, it’s a one on one and I say it, I don’t mean to be as simple as that, but this is something that if you really want someone to trust you when things aren’t going well, then you need to at least have a level of personal relationship with them or level of personal rapport with them.

You need to have that level of relationship so that they can feel comfortable to come to you when the time is needed as well. So that’s usually my style of approach is literally one on ones and time with that person.

[00:21:01] Chris Hudson: Does the same, from your own point of view, I suppose elevating upwards to other people within organisations that you’ve had to work with? Do you draw the same level of comfort from that same interaction where you’re able to share something with a leader, you’re able to talk it out, you can get in early and have that communication to be able to fix things before and like you say, get in front of it. Is that something that really comforts you in situations where it can get a bit curly?

[00:21:24] Carly Neubauer: Yes, I think so. And I had this question not that long ago from someone saying my manager’s not giving me much time. My manager’s not putting me in the diary and I’ve always thought, well, you put yourself in their diary then, like you then make sure you’re asking for and booking in directly with them as well.

Like there’s nothing wrong with the employee booking time regularly with their manager to have a check in. That’s really positive. I think that’s really proactive. So, that’s generally my style too, or my thought on it is it goes both ways. We’re all people. If you need and want to build that one on one relationship, then that’s okay, but ask for it as well and I think most managers would appreciate that. And if they’re not doing it, it may simply be busy and a lot on their plate, nothing more to it. It’s not generally, oh I don’t want to have time with my team. It will usually be a lot of responsibility going on in most cases.

[00:22:13] Chris Hudson: Yeah, and then thinking back to your career, what would have been some of the things that would have really helped in the way of support as you were going through some of those situations, do you believe?

[00:22:21] Carly Neubauer: I think occasionally more guidance on how to do things versus trial and error. I definitely had one manager was like, you’d present and then no present, no present, no. And I finally get the yes. I’m like, oh, okay. But you probably could have told me that three, three attempts ago. That’s okay again, you learn from that and it’s kind of cool, but at the time, maybe a little bit more, here’s an idea around a structure would be good and that wasn’t that person’s style and that’s okay. I ended up working really, really closely with them for long term and I think they’re fabulous, but that was just their style that you keep trying until you get it right versus I think maybe more these days is a little bit more around giving some input and structure to people to then work within versus just keep trying till you get there. So, so maybe, maybe that. But look, it builds character and you, and you keep trying and the win always feels better when you’ve had a lot of no’s first, so that’s okay.

[00:23:13] Chris Hudson: Yeah, I think experimentation in business is feeling like it’s becoming a a bit more accepted. People are used to it and there’s a bit more of that playfulness coming into the work environment where historically would have been, okay, you had two weeks, you can do this thing and it’s presentation back to the board or wherever it was, and then you’d get some feedback and you have another two weeks to fix it. It’s all very sort of stop, start, but now it’s a little bit more free form in that people can have ideas all the time. They can run things by people and maybe in a more casual setting. It feels a little bit more accessible in that respect, but obviously it means that there’s a lot of conversations going on about everything at the same time, but it’s it takes a bit of getting used to, I think. What about the work that you’re doing now in terms of, let’s talk a bit about work and satisfaction from the work that you do and the work that you get. What has been some of the more rewarding stuff that you’ve either pursued or has landed with you through your career and why do you think that was as rewarding as it was?

[00:24:03] Carly Neubauer: One thing I’ve learned is that a purpose, having a cause, having something behind why you’re doing what you’re doing. I value that so much more these days and I realised how important that is these days. My business, we have a cause, we have a purpose. We have something we’re always working to that is more than just our business.

It’s got a deeper cause and meaning and realise something we give back to. So that really drives me. And it’s the thing that gets you up in the morning. And then the days that are really tough, are challenging, or you just don’t have the same energy when you can go back to your why and why you’re doing it, it keeps you going.

It literally does. So that in itself, I think everyone’s why and reason will be different. Of course, but then knowing yours and what keeps you going more intrinsically over and above ‘ my manager told me to’, or I’m going for a pay rise or a promotion or whatever else that might be, the thing that’s within you that gets you going is like 200 percent the most important part, because that’ll overcome everything else and it’ll bring you back when you get your knockdowns as well.

[00:25:06] Chris Hudson: Yeah, I think that’s right. I mean, often they talk about I guess a company vision and how well it’s understood and how well it’s communicated within an organisation or a business. And it’s not always the case that people know exactly what they should be doing in relation to that. So to ask the question around yourself and start with yourself, you know, starting point, but you’ve still got to then connect it to the company and what it’s doing or what your team’s doing, what you’re aiming at in that quarter. How do you best connect the dots there?

[00:25:32] Carly Neubauer: So if I’m looking at it from a business point of view, in a lot of cases, it’s what is the business vision and values for real? I say that because I’m sure we’ve seen people with vision statements that they’re written on the wall, but what do they really mean? That’s okay, but realistically, especially these days, I think they get questioned more than ever before.

Taglines and slogans aren’t 20 years ago when you had a tagline slogan. Vision statements need to really mean something. And employees really want to have that purpose within their business that actually means something to them. So first and foremost, yes, the business needs to have the vision. But then it’s about bringing that back and communicating it to the employee base.

around why it’s important and why this adds value and why it can relate to them. You can’t necessarily create a vision that appeases every single person and ticks the box on every single personal drive. I get that because that’s huge. It’s probably the reverse where if you can at least communicate why this vision and these values matter, then people can buy into it and getting your employees to see that and buy into it for real.

That can be at least a really great starting point.

[00:26:41] Chris Hudson: Yeah, I think there’s a question around engagement because obviously back in previous years, a message would have been incredibly powerful and the delivery of that message to a team audience or within a company setting would have been listened to because it didn’t happen very often and you’d have to make note of it and act upon it.

Otherwise you’re kind of in and you’re out. However, now it feels like we’ve moved to more of an experienced economy. People are expected to do something with it and connect to that message in some way. So it kind of raises a question really around communication and how that is done, how to best communicate a message without it feeling like it’s just being prescribed to you. It’s done in a way that still, it’s stated, but it’s also a little bit open. You can make it your own, you can connect it to your own purpose. So do you find that sort of thing working well in some, in some places?

[00:27:30] Carly Neubauer: Yeah, I think that’s a great point. Let people make it their own, create it in a way that at least it can mean maybe something slightly different to different people. There’s nothing worse than, I’m not saying I have the silver bullet for this, right, but there’s nothing worse than when you see companies putting up vision statements or values and they list 10 values for the business and then the employees turn around and go, that’s not true.

That never happens or, I don’t feel like that. These days the values are being critiqued as well, so it’s almost like if, and this is not easy for management, but the minute you put them up, I guess you need to be ready and willing to back them up, because they’re going to get questions, because if the employee doesn’t agree with, you know, honesty and trust is a value in the workplace or whatever it might be, well, then you kind of lost that battle right there, so it can work against you.

So it’s almost, it’s a hard one, but create them that you’re really willing to stand by and speak to and back them up at least. Even if it’s only two or three, I’d rather three that I could back up than ten that I were a bit vague.

[00:28:24] Chris Hudson: Yeah, you’re right. You gotta put something behind it. Otherwise, it’s just, you know, vanity. But actually, I guess what I’m observing is that. I mean, I’ve worked a lot on these employee experience, division of values and all the things that go with it. How businesses go about defining culture. And you notice a few things, which is for one, the methodology is always similar. It’s not always right. And it’s not always tuned in. It doesn’t start with the culture that you have already, but it’s, it’s usually top down and it’s usually prescribed, which, which can be a problem. If you work in a customer experience role, then obviously you’re trying to change that and make it much more empathetic and much more in tune with what you feel your people actually resonate with and what they value. But sometimes where this lands is that. A lot of the vision and the values, the values in particular, they’re all interchangeable, right? One day you’re looking at Atlassian, you hear you’re there everywhere. You’re thinking, okay, well, what’s unique about you in terms of your values?

And you know, if you were looking at the job market or where to go next, it’s all reasonably acceptable, but it’s kind of flat and it all feels quite generic and a little bit the same. Do you observe that as well? And what really stands out as something that you can connect with more?

[00:29:27] Carly Neubauer: I think your point’s valid. Even the fact that it’s almost like we’ve swung the other way of everyone now is stating these big values and visions and our culture and that, which is great. That’s a good starting point. But how do you distinguish the ones that really do have good culture and really do have that in place versus everybody saying all the right things now.

It’s well advertised. I think most companies are smart enough to know you need to say it. How do you find a company really that lives and breeds it and really actually stands by those vision and values because everyone’s sort of saying they’ve got them and Google all the right things to say and do and write so it’s cutting through which businesses and leaders really, truly stand by that day to day, week in week out, I mean, asking other employees, reading reviews and getting that sort of, feedback can really help. And I think a lot of the recruitment agents can tend to cut through that as well.

But at the end of the day, yeah, I think it’s a tough one. I don’t really have the answer because while everyone’s saying it and singing that song, how do you know who really, really lives it as well?

[00:30:28] Chris Hudson: Yeah, it’s an interesting point. I feel like the experience of working at a company was once, just the thing in itself, right? And then back stepping from there, you’re into onboarding and the sorts of things. And we all know that that goes really terribly wrong as well. And then before that, you’ve got the recruitment, the talent acquisition kind of area where actually there’s a lot more focus now, it feels like to get some of that interaction going between individuals. So high touch, you know, lots of presentation type exercises, panels, interviews, in higher volume than they were ever before. And people are trying to get to know the organisation a little bit that way. What’s your observation on that? How do you feel that’s working?

[00:31:06] Carly Neubauer: From a business perspective and when you’re trying to employ, I think it’s really important to figure that out from both sides. Right? So the business really needs to know that that employee, the possible employee is the right fit and then the employees trying to suss out whether the business is the right fit and whether we all have the same culture and we’re all happy with each other.

It’s a tough one in the lead up and the downside is that there can be so much time spent through that and time costs to a business through the recruitment process because of this vetting dance that is done now, and I don’t disrespect it I think it’s so important because you need that right fit and everyone’s looking for the right fit but then when you look at that recruitment cost across the business because there’s so many more interviews these days or extra testing or the meet and greets and the process that it can become really costly.

My view on that is then when you find people that are good and do fit. Keep them, do your best to then create a place they will thrive and in return, so does the business. So it’s you know, treat your employees like gold because just that cost of trying to find the next best fit can be just enormous and so taxing on management as well.

[00:32:13] Chris Hudson: That’s really resonating. I think that there are so many places that would just leave you. It’s a bit like when you buy insurance and you only get in touch with them when you, when you, when something goes wrong. A lot of people won’t engage with their employees until the time that they’re needing to resign or think about other options and they’re frustrated and they’re quietly frustrated.

We know this as leaders, but as an employee, as a member of a team, you know, I think we’ve both probably been in that situation ourselves too. So I’m just thinking from your point of view you’ve worked in a commercial leadership role. And obviously that has a very thick line or a dotted line depending on how you worked it, but into culture, you know how do you balance that focus really from an organisational point of view where it can be quite easily swaying towards a commercial outcome and what price can you put on culture and culture building and and what are some of the things that you think work well in that respect?

[00:33:00] Carly Neubauer: You can actually quantify it to, to a certain degree. And you know, I mean, there’s hard and soft costs around turnover and retention and churn and all this. So well, to quite a bit of it, you can actually calculate the cost to a business on losing staff and churn. Even if that’s what drives some change. That’s a good start. I mean, it should come from a better place, I believe, but that’s not a bad place to start, that even the actual financial costs to a business can be enormous let alone IP costs and the ongoing impact to existing employees that it’s still there, there’s a quite a long story about that.

So it is able to be calculated in a commercial approach and you can reflect on the costs just on monetary side of things, let alone the actual further costs to the business as well. I saw a stat the other day, apparently 67 percent of the Australian and New Zealand workplace are quiet quitting.

Now that in itself is a huge cost to the business. So if that’s happening, then the people that are still being paid, mind you, that’s another cost to the business that most businesses cannot sustain.

[00:34:02] Chris Hudson: It feels like that movement is on the rise and the behaviour and predictability of the behaviour while there are engagement surveys and things that are starting to quantify what’s going on within the business is actually becoming more fluid and even harder for people that have organisations that aren’t ready for that in one way or another. So I think some are well set up for it and preparing almost from the start of that engagement with an, you know, with an employee. Others are caught off guard, usually, and then they go somewhere else. So I want to come back to a point that you were making just around purpose and the sorts of things that, that really sit behind the why for some employees, because, it is important, but how do people go about finding, I mean, this sounds like a really hard question to answer on behalf of everybody else, but how do people go about finding their why within all the resources that a role where, now I know for one, if I’m turning up, day one on a new job, and I’ve been through eight rounds of interviews, I’m not really going to know, I’ll know something about what it’s going to be like, but I’m not going to know exactly what it’s going to be like until I’ve worked there for a little bit. And then you find that actually, through the weeks that go on, couple of months, couple of years pass by and you’re just consumed into the culture that you join, but you feel like sometimes you’ve lost your sense of individualism because you’re just part of that team and you’re going along with what was done before.

How do you bring yourself to, work sometimes in that respect?

[00:35:18] Carly Neubauer: I guess the first thing when listening to your question that comes to mind is in those initial stages, the person that’s going to have the most impact on you is usually, in most cases, your direct manager. So, how can you establish early that you both have some level of rapport or agreement on the basics that you’re aligned on some of these elements?

And if it’s not your manager, if it’s more than one person, who are the key impactors in your workplace? It may be key colleagues as well. So, can you establish where possible before taking the role that you’re aligned or that that does really agree with you, even in most of it, you know, we’re not all going to agree on everything.

Establishing that early is probably the first place because at the end of the day, those are the people going to be impacting your day to day the most. But on the flip side to go into a place that then appreciates your why you need to really know what it is too. So be clear on what it is first, whether you need to note that down somewhere so you don’t forget whatever your style is, that’s fine.

But make sure you know, first, don’t expect everybody else to know for you and then deliver that to you have it yourself. And also, you’re not going to get everything you need from your workplace. Let’s be honest, we go to work you can’t expect that your manager and your colleagues are going to provide everything for you.

You also need to take that responsibility to hopefully be in a really great place that supports you and drives you and provides value. But there’s going to be some elements you’re probably going to need to get from other areas of your life or that you can bring back to the business in return. So this is the balancing act of hopefully you’re not, you’re not feeling demotivated and devalued, but also business can’t bring everything.

[00:36:53] Chris Hudson: And also playing that forward. It’s around how much influence you think you can have within the organisation. So once you’ve got that comfort level going, what does your sphere of influence look like yourself and what do you feel like either works in the current state or status quo or what needs to change?

How have you gone about spotting the things that have not been quite right in the businesses that you’ve worked in and then changing them in one way or another?

[00:37:16] Carly Neubauer: I think at times I may have done this really well and at times I’ve done this really poorly. Yeah, I don’t think that you get it right every time. I think there’s times to go in hard, be really forceful, drive change. You can see a problem, we really need to state that and work towards driving that change.

Other times you may need to take a more tactful approach, create step change, you know, bring people on the journey. And they’re two very different styles. And it’s not necessarily that one or the other is bad or good, it’s probably picking which one is the right one for that particular time and purpose or problem.

And that’s probably more the key is picking the right strategy for that particular timeframe versus which approach is correct. And you sometimes sense check yourself. Is this really a deal breaker? Is it something I’m passionate about? Or is it actually a deal breaker? Does everybody else really see that it’s the same issue or change that’s required?

Or is it just me? And that’s okay for you to go, actually, that’s not as big a deal as I thought it was. I’m going to take a chill pill on this one and come back to the next. So occasionally sense check yourself and go, okay, is this really the battle I want to fight today?

[00:38:20] Chris Hudson: Yeah, I had a an interesting chat with David Webster on a previous episode and he was telling us a bit about his time within an advertising agency and actually the point was that even if you were totally, like the perception was that he was just total pain in the ass and he was just arguing with everybody, including his CEO was just pain in the backside the whole time as he put it. He would say to people that no matter what you say we’re all in this. We’re on the same team for one, but we’re also very much aligned to what we as an organisation want to do. And even if it comes across the wrong way, that’s still where we’re heading. So I think this sense of having a north star is really important if, we were talking about it before but if you can align yourself in your own values to what it is the company is achieving in some way that connections already made, then you have your north star because you know which way you want the company to go really, and you’re trying to get everyone to do the same, but there can be obviously the flip side to that, which is that you’re kind of like a fire starter.

You’re creating problems here and there because you want to see what happens. And some people do that at work too, as a bit of, I don’t know if it’s sabotage, but it feels like you’re always like seeing that there’s stuff going on in other areas, people got agendas, personal agendas, and it’s completely misaligned to what everyone thinks everyone else is doing.

So I can see it, see it happening in both ways, but I guess, what are some of the toxic behaviours that you’re looking out for and how do you get around some of those?

[00:39:34] Carly Neubauer: Yeah. Okay. I think to your first, your earlier point that North star, it comes, leadership is it right? It comes from leadership, culture comes from top down and businesses will thrive or die on your leadership. While I have a lot of respect for that because that’s a huge weight to bear as well.

So while that’s. I do believe it’s true. It’s also a heavy responsibility, and at the end of the day, whoever’s leading is usually human as well, right? So they’re not always perfect, and and that’s just being human. To your second point around the toxic behaviour, it’s almost like a question of if someone’s doing that consistently, And there’s no real, well, you don’t believe there’s rationale to it.

They’re probably unhappy. It’s something’s frustrating them anyway, let’s be honest. So maybe digging deeper to figure out what’s driving that frustration that might need to be addressed. There’s probably something there. And even if it’s something you need to work through with that person or the business needs to address, but the frustration is coming from somewhere. So can’t hurt to take a moment and look into that because, sometimes those people are the ones that are alerting you to the problems you weren’t aware of and might save you a lot of projects or money by paying attention to it. They may not be just yelling for the sake of yelling.

[00:40:40] Chris Hudson: Yeah, it’s like the teenagers pushing the boundaries, isn’t it? That it was looking like for ways to figure things out in a different way. And I think in the workplace that that happens too. People are trying to find where the safe zone is and where, what they can push against. And if they get a bounce back, then obviously they know that that’s a shut door or whatever, they go down another path, but yeah some of that can be helpful to observe in a way, and if it’s particularly if it’s not you doing it, somebody else is doing it, but you can at least tune into it and see the behaviour, observe it, learn from what other people are doing a little bit as well. The people that try and make them as those mistakes for you can save you time in the long term, I reckon as well. Yeah, I’m just thinking, I guess about you personally as well. What do you feel drives you? We’ve talked about purpose, we’ve talked about the situations, some of the situations that you’ve been in. In terms of your, your superpower, what you love to do. Tell us a bit about that if you can.

[00:41:28] Carly Neubauer: I love seeing other people win. I love seeing a team that I’m working with have awesome wins, right? That gives me a lot of joy. If I’m leading a team and they individually or as a group have big win off their own accord as in their own, their own wins or their own achievements. I mean, I think that’s amazing and I get a lot out of that because I feel like, hey, maybe I’ve added some value there to give them either the space or the support to achieve that.

So that for me is, is massive. I think that’s what I would hope to be doing longterm where the people that work within my organisation are having their personal wins. And that’s beneficial to a business, yes, but I love seeing that and it’s like that infinite meaning where it’s not just about you.

It’s what you can help others do as well. And I would hope that I’ve created that over the years, but I strive to keep creating that ongoing and improve how I do that. As I get older and wiser, hopefully as well.

[00:42:26] Chris Hudson: Yeah, that’s a great answer. I loved it. And you’re right. The more you step into your career, the next stages are there. There’s always something interesting. There are always challenges, but you find that actually, there’s a feeling of empowerment, and I find this as well, that you can actually impart quite a lot, and it’s a responsibility that you have to other people to share a lot of what you’ve done and how you can go about things, and it’s not just within a really strict team environment, but actually more broadly as well. So giving something back is really, really important. You never know and you learn from every conversation, I believe as well. I’d love to just hear a bit more about what you’re up to now and some of the things that you’re maybe considering for the future. If you could talk about, what’s kind of the next big chapter for you, Carly, and where do you want to go next?

[00:43:08] Carly Neubauer: Yeah, we’ve got lots happening. Current startup is still relatively new. And we have a really big roadmap for 2024, which we’re pretty excited about, which is, is great. So it’s a loyalty and digital payments, business, and look for all intents and purposes it’s a busy space at the moment.

There’s a lot of focus on loyalty and innovation at the moment from a lot of companies. I think the reason that’s driving that is the commercialisation of it where, when there’s a difficult retail space or cost pressures, loyalty can really bring some fabulous return without the same level of expenditure in a lot of cases.

I’m also taking on a new role as a host for Let’s Talk Loyalty podcast, which is super exciting. This is an amazing podcast. Founded by Paula Thomas and 2024 I’m joining her team. So that’s, that’s really, really cool. I’m really honoured to have been invited.

[00:44:06] Chris Hudson: Yeah. Brilliant. All right. Lots of exciting stuff coming up. And maybe just a final question, which is around, we’ve talked a lot about company culture and obviously you work in the areas of loyalty, are there parallels there that you see? You know, between one helping the other. So if you know how to run loyalty programs, do you know how to run businesses and keep people loyal there too?

[00:44:22] Carly Neubauer: Well, yeah, there’s a lot of parallels. I mean, similar to what I said right at the start. I think you’re dealing with people and that’s what I love about loyalty as well is yes, these are big programs. You’ve got millions of members, et cetera, but those members are people, you know, what drives their behaviour and how can we work with those psychological drivers that.

Reward them, make them feel great, but then obviously in turn have their loyalty as well. And the same goes for employees, you can overlay a lot of similar thought processes to both employees and employee programs and a loyalty program because it’s people at the end of the day.

[00:44:59] Chris Hudson: I just want to finish with one question that we often ask, which is around a piece of advice that you’d give to other intrapreneurs, people that are trying to make change possible in one way or another within an organisation, do you have a piece of advice that you’d give to somebody from your years of experience?

[00:45:12] Carly Neubauer: I think sense check whether the level of fight is worth the reward. You know, what is the cost benefit ratio and what is the cost of change? It’s easy to assume that the change we want to see is worth it and we believe in it. But it’s probably worth sense checking that before going into battle. And the really biggest litmus test for that is am I doing it for the people in the business?

Like is this going to benefit the people and the business? Of course. Don’t do it for your own personal reasons. It needs to actually be for the people there. That will usually tell you whether you’re on the right track or not, I think. If it’s benefiting the whole, not just one.

[00:45:46] Chris Hudson: So you’re asking people to look outside of themselves. When it can happen, obviously does happen a lot, but not, not for some, you know, find it a bit harder, but yeah, really good, really good advice. I think that’s, that’s super important. Look beyond your own horizons to understand the context with which your ideas or suggestions are going to be received and ultimately look for the greater good. Yeah, the possibility of what that might bring to a broader set of people as well. So yeah, really, really great point to end on. So thank you. And yeah, maybe just tell people a bit about how they might reach you if they want to get in touch, if they have a question, or if they want to hear more about Elevate or the podcast, what do you want to share with people in the way of get in touch?

[00:46:23] Carly Neubauer: LinkedIn is usually the easiest. That’s not original, but it works.

[00:46:27] Chris Hudson: Yep.

[00:46:28] Carly Neubauer: I’m on LinkedIn and I think that’s a really easy way to find me or our website is elevateloyalty.com. So there’s that as well so either is, is relatively straightforward.com

[00:46:37] Chris Hudson: All right, well thank you so much, Carly. I really appreciate your time today. And I know you’ve you’ve given up time on a very busy day, so appreciate you joining the podcast and thanks again for being a guest.

[00:46:45] Carly Neubauer: Thank you for inviting me.

[00:46:47] Chris Hudson: Okay, so that’s it for this episode. If you’re hearing this message, you’ve listened all the way to the end. So thank you very much. We hope you enjoyed the show. We’d love to hear your feedback. So please leave us a review and share this episode with your friends, team members, leaders if you think it’ll make a difference.

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