The Intrapreneur’s Edge: Unleashing Your Core Strengths for Success

“If people can’t explain you, you’re at massive risk”
Mike Dyson

In this episode you’ll hear about

• Intrapreneurs vs. Innovators
• Essential qualities of an Intrapreneur
• How and where to initiate change
• Self-Assessment and Alignment – Staying on Track
• Understanding Stakeholders and Effective Engagement
• Innovation and Business Goals – Value Alignment
• Fostering a Culture of Innovation – Psychological Safety

We hope you enjoy the show!

Key links

Ryan Rumsey https://www.ryanrumsey.com/

Dare by Stan Bush https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLhp0US_Hj0

Lean Six Sigma https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2HCrhNVfak

Harriet Wakeman, IAG https://www.linkedin.com/in/hwakelam/

Cynefin Framework https://thecynefin.co/about-us/about-cynefin-framework/

About our guest

Our guest, Mike Dyson (https://www.linkedin.com/in/mikedysonexpdesign/), was formerly the Head of Capability & Experience Design at nbn Australia. In the five years since joining nbn, Mike established a cross-functional innovation & design practice who delivered immense value across multiple parts of nbn’s operations groups.

Mike has worked in many of the major industries from telecommunications, healthcare, finance, insurance and even waste management. In fact he likes to joke that if he ever wrote a book it would be from Movie Stars to Landfills the Mike Dyson story.

An expert in numerous facets of Human Centred Design, Business Architecture and Innovation, he uses his passions and know-how to maximise the talent of teams and changes lives through simple design.

Mike generously shares his design leadership experience through his public speaking event and his role as a mentor with digital and design with groups like Academy Xi and ADP.

About our host

Our host, Chris Hudson, is a Teacher, Experience Designer and Founder of business transformation coaching & consultancy Company Road (companyroad.co).

Company Road was founded by Chris Hudson, who saw over-niching and specialisation within corporates as a significant barrier to change.

Every team approaches transformation in their own way, also bringing in their own partners to help. And while they’re working towards the same organisational goal, it’s this over-fragmentation that stunts rapid progress at a company-wide level.

Having worked as a marketer, transformation leader, teacher and practitioner of design thinking for over 20 years, both here in Australia and internationally, Chris brings a unique, deep and ‘blended’ skillset that will cohere and enable your teams to deliver ambitious and complex change programs.

Chris considers himself incredibly fortunate to have worked with some of the world’s most ambitious and successful companies, including Google, Mercedes-Benz, Accenture (Fjord) and Dulux, to name a small few. He continues to teach with Academy Xi in CX, Product Management, Design Thinking and Service Design and mentors many business leaders internationally.

Transcript

Hey there and welcome to the Company Road Podcast where we explore the world of intrapreneurship and what it takes to change an organization.In this episode,we’re joined by Mike Dyson,former head of Capability and Experience Design at NBN Australia.With extensive experience across industries like Telco,healthcare,finance,and insurance.Mike’s an expert in human-centred design,business architecture,and innovation.During his time,bn Mike led a cross-functional innovation and design practice.Delivering immense value to multiple operational groups he has transformed lives through simple,yet impactful design solutions and generously shares his leadership experience as a speaker and a mentor.In this episode,we discuss key topics such as the distinction between intrapreneurs and innovators,the essential qualities of successful intrapreneurs.And effective strategies for initiating change.We emphasize the importance of self-assessment and alignment to stay focused and make meaningful contributions.Understanding stakeholders and engaging with them effectively is crucial,as is aligning innovation efforts with business objectives for maximum value.We explore how intrapreneur leaders can create environment that encourages idea generation.Experimentation and ownership,allowing team members to feel safe expressing themselves and taking risks.Join us on this exciting episode of The Company Road Podcast for valuable insights and inspiration as you continue your own intrapreneurial journey.Let’s dive in.

Chris: 1:27
Hello and and welcome Mike.Welcome to the Company Road podcast.This is actually the first episode that we’re going to be recording with you today,and I’m extremely excited to have you on the show.And what a privilege.Met fairly recently.We’ve been connected for a little while,and,yeah,we’d love to just have the chat with you today get your take on the world of intrapreneurs the world of companies and organizations that you know so well.Let’s hear from you.What’s your take on the word,intrapreneur?How do you interpret that yourself?

Mike: 1:55
It’s an interesting one.I had to really think about it for a bit.There’s a difference between intrapreneur and innovator,and I think that’s a key distinction for me.An intrapreneur is someone who’s in an organization.Who’s looking at how to create change in that organization and sell that change.But it’s different from an innovator in that they don’t necessarily always need to do step change.It can be progressive change.They need to be involved in multiple areas of the organization and they need to have a good sense of compromise,business acumen,the likes.And I think that’s the key difference for me.Anyone can be really great at being innovative developing really cool ideas and solutions,but an intrapreneur needs to be someone who actually understands how that’s gonna support the business in its growth and development.I think that’s an important lens for me.

Chris: 2:42
And tell me about yourself,in that context,how do you identify?Do you feel like you’re in one camp or the other?In both?Mostly.How does it work for you?

Mike: 2:48
I actually felt like I was pretty much aligned more to the intrapreneur whilst I’ve definitely done that element of being really out there and innovative,et cetera,it’s really about going,what’s the point?If it doesn’t have or achieve the business goals,objectives,and outcomes we’re looking at.And we might determine what those business goals objectives are through the process.You might work out,there’s a new market opportunity out there,but it’s not just developing it because it’s cool,it’s gotta be something used and useful.Make a step leap in terms of the organization,how it works and how it functions.

Chris: 3:23
And how do you work in that space?What characterizes your approach?

Mike: 3:26
One thing is probably a lot of resilience.Resilience is very high.Secondly,a lot of curiosity.You’ve gotta be really interested in the aspects of the organization,how it works.And a lot of organizations are,especially enterprise,are really broad.So the third part you really need in there is really good ability to communicate and network in that organization.Those three things how you start to be in that sort of intrapreneurial mindset.Then back that up with that kind of aspect around understanding the metrics and measures,understanding,adoption and desirability.And how to be that aspect of going,not everything of yours is gonna work and fly.And that’s why the resilience is so key.Because you don’t have to keep picking yourself back up through that cuz you,you do encounter both as an innovator or as an intrapreneur.You,you do encounter a lot of sort of resistance as you go sometimes.

Chris: 4:16
Yeah,let’s unpack that a bit.The resilience,the fact that you’re always up against something,how do handle that?What are some of the tips involved,when you’re in that situation

Mike: 4:25
So some good examples I suppose of being that intrapreneur tackling situations where People were really hesitant to change.I think a great example for me was many years ago with NBN Co,we really needed to change the way that our tool sets were perceived by those external partners.So Telstra,Optus,Aussie Broadband,all those organizations,right?We provided that through API services.We also provided a portal service.A lot of the feedback that the staff were providing the organization was the quality of tickets incoming weren’t great,and that the real way that we needed to solve this problem was mandating information capture,mandating processes,building more elaborate processes,and really putting the pressure on the external organization that they need to train their staff better.And this resulted in like a70,80page manual,right?And we’re looking at this going for six,seven years you’ve been trying this process and you’re really still complaining about this.So how do we create.That moment to not only show a path forward,but bring these people on the journey with us and actually make that step change.And for us it using data and using storytelling together.So we bought up part of the existing tool set that we provided.We had all the experts in the area who’ve been the ones pushing us all this time to go,everything’s perfect,it’s fine.And we pointed up this thing and we went,okay,just this one test for a customer service.How long would it take you to learn how to use this test and know exactly what it means?They went,oh,six months.And I were like,is that all tests or just this test?And he is just this test.And I was like,all access technologies or just this one?He goes,just this one.Then how long would it take you to learn everything?He is oh,years.I’m like,do you know that the operators at those service partners only stay on the job three to four months before they move on?And he just watched this horrified expression on their face and you’re like,Do you think they’re ever gonna be able to send us good quality information and customer outcomes if it takes that long to learn this?And they’re like,uhoh.And I was like,maybe we need to do something different here.And really about creating those moments,right?Linking a nice way forward that’s really gonna achieve business outcomes.But linking that into something that these stakeholders can connect to you,understand,and then support you and overnight,like every person with a barrier would suddenly be behind us.And we had all that mission and ability to go forward.But up until that point,their people had been struggling to hit that mark for years trying to get that change through.And it took that criticality.

Chris: 7:01
I was just gonna say rewinding back,you were going in with your own approach,about the many that had tried to do similar things and had failed as well.Were people warning you against that?Were you thinking,okay,I’ve got a bit of an idea.I think I might see how it goes.Were you trying something new?I mean,how confident were you going in?

Mike: 7:17
I just always went in with the view of what’s the worst they could do to me?Fire me.And you sometimes have to be that bold and brave,right?It doesn’t mean be a real arrogant individual about it.It doesn’t mean railroad over everyone,it’s not a permission to be an absolute maverick asshole,let’s be honest.But it is a sense to go,you know what?I already know what the worst outcome could potentially be,and I’m okay with that.If they shoot me down,they shoot me down,but at least I tried.

Chris: 7:47
Is that in your conscious thinking,are you thinking about the worst outcome as you make your moves or you prepare some of these encounters in the organization?

Mike: 7:55
It is,I think it was,but it probably at some point just became second nature and then it became more of something I’d say to others to help them on their journey.So with my team for example,they’ll be like,oh my God,I’m so stressed out on bringing this up.And I’m like,what’s the worst that’s gonna happen?I’m not gonna fire you.It was that ability to go through that and set that aspect to go,things aren’t that bad,you can pitch.I think the challenge that people have with pitching is missing the fundamentals and those three things are making sure it connects to the person you’re pitching to something that is relevant to them.Making sure that there’s some form of metrics and numbers and measures in there that they can gravitate to,and especially if it’s something that links to their performance measures or bonuses and having an action plan,especially designers,right?I love designers.I am a designer,but.Designers have a hard time wanting to put up recommendations or action plans forward.I find,and that is the missing gap is this is the problem and this is why it’s a problem and we’ve got evidence that this is a problem,but this is what you should do about it.That is the thing that will make you the difference that will step you forward.

Chris: 9:09
You mentioned a couple of things there,so one is having an actual plan,and the other thing is probably knowing your audience.Yes.Maybe we could just go into a couple of those areas and just tell me about what you do to understand your audience.We talk a lot about it in the world of CX and in the world of design obviously,but we’re often trying to get our lay of the land,we’re trying to figure out what the measure of success might look like for that person.But how do you go about it yourself?

Mike: 9:31
Literally trying to find out their KPIs and measures.I learnt this from a situation where it went bad.We were having a group of BAs working on a project at Medibank many years ago.And we thought we’d done the right thing by highlighting more customers that were going to be impacted by this issue.So we identified that there was more customers gonna be impacted and thus the challenge was gonna be bigger,but at least we now knew that it’s the real size of the customers.The product manager lost it in the meeting big time.Absolutely lost it.It was just before Christmas.We’ve all come back after the small little two week break and this person was now the most friendliest person you’ve ever seen.And everyone was going to me going.What the hell happened over Christmas?Did they just get like the most brilliant holiday?Did they win lotto?Like,why are they so chirpy now?And I’m like,because they missed their bonus cycle.And everyone’s just looked at me like,what do you mean?I went well,Medibank got measured at end of calendar year,at end of financial year.So we just told them in that meeting that they were going to miss their bonus cycle.Now we’ve got six months to approve it.And once we’d worked that stuff out,it,it changed the way we pitch messages,it changed the way we can connect to it.And we are driven a lot of time either by mission or money,right?And so having that view of trying to work out what they’re measured on,when the cycle is,it can really help you with working out these stakeholders.And it,confuses me with designers where we have,like you said,in CX we have all these great tools on mapping customers,but our stakeholders are our customers as well.So we’ve gotta apply those same tools and techniques exactly how we would do it to a.To an actual customer of the company,to our customers to understand them and work out what,who’s,good partners,who’s good stakeholders,what’s those drivers wants,needs,behaviors and that then empowers you to be able to talk to them and make those sort of really meaningful and connected conversations.

Chris: 11:26
Yeah,that’s really important,isn’t it?It’s one thing to just let the organization or the work or the project take you with it.You’re often feeling less empowered,less in control.You’re often trying to make a mark yourself.And,you’ve got your own objectives,you’ve got your own training,you’ve got your own personal development plan.All the things that you’re bringing to the table are there in your mind,but somehow it doesn’t always fit with the situation that you’re in.Do you find that?

Mike: 11:48
Yeah,it does.And it’s really interesting you can really work really heavily on stuff.And do really good work,but still have a bad annual review.Like I’ve learned that lesson,right?Which is you’ve lost sight,you’ve listened to a lot of loud voices through the journey,but you’ve lost sight of what you’re actually there to do and achieve.And when you see that stuff diverting,you really gotta take either a step back to go,should I pull back from this and make sure I refocus?Or do I need to have a retargeting conversation,which is no,this is actually what our new focus is and I need to formalize And it’s making sure you do those self assessments.It can be every quarter type stuff where I find really works or sometimes monthly,depends on how fluid and fast your workplace is.But make sure you block in that time for yourself to do that self-assessment to go.How aligned am I with everything?Am I actually achieving all those goals and development?Do I need to pivot,reset?What things do I need to start or I’m trying to remember the right one.Ryan Rumsey has a good one.He just taught me recently.Or it was like basically raise,reduce,eliminate,or start,right?I love that because at NBN,we used to use start,stop,continue all the time.But there’d be so much stuff and continue,you’d be overwhelmed with the amount of work by having raise and reduce,you’re giving more focus on,still gotta work on it.But my quadrant of the things I should be submitting all my effort on is this one I still gotta work on this,but I shouldn’t be spending as much time on this.

Chris: 13:15
Yeah,it is definitely a point around self-awareness and checking in with yourself and your goals.But I think,an organization can be a lonely place too.It feels like you have to find those points of connection with the wider organization.Even if you’re getting,just some peer to peer advice from a colleague or somebody from another team.Do you do anything like that just to check in?Cause I think that,you can get lost in your own thought process.Sometimes go into overthink quite quickly.What’s your view on that?

Mike: 13:40
It’s definitely a thing you have to do,and it comes down to how formalized that style needs to be as well.So you can go into that full process of full360reviews,and I would maybe do those maybe once,twice a year.But you do your regular check-ins and elements.The way I used to look at it,especially as a leader,but even my seniors and leads,I would say the same is your week is broken up into five days.Three days is the days you’re doing work.The actual project time you’re doing,you are gonna lose a day due to admin in any large corporate,like just between meetings,team check-ins,other team rituals.Filling out time sheets,you’re gonna lose a day.That last day is your business development and networking day,and that’s really important.So that’s,that helps you set up with keeping connected even with people you’re not working projects on,just so you have an insight of what’s coming up.Gives you an opportunity to check in on perception and feedback and all those things,but that’s the day when you go and have a rolling calendar of who you’re gonna meet on that day,have coffee with,be it virtual or not and keep those connections going.

Chris: 14:45
Yeah.As you you’re doing the coffees and stuff,it’s a big thing over here in Melbourne.Oh God,yes.It’s not done everywhere,but How do you get the most out of those encounters,those meetings,what are you.Yeah,are they just rolling invites?Are you planning for them at all?What are you doing there?

Mike: 14:59
I do,keep a calendar of people and priority and areas and then will flex the weighting of how often I need to connect with them based upon it.So there is a lot of set up admin life for yourself to get in there,but once you’ve got it going in,it becomes second nature.And so people who you’ve got active projects on,especially on the,where they are in the life cycle of the project,yeah,you’re gonna have regular catch ins just on that one.The ones you know,have got the leading next piece of work,they’re gonna be in the next batch.And so you got those tiers through that process.And then most of those individuals,I might have been in the meeting a good chunk of them once a month,if that.But by having those regular setups,by having those regular ritual points,everyone else got really used to them.We got into a really good style with them.Having a floating agenda element helps you with what the purpose is and everything because it just settles what the importance is for that other individual.But I found a lot of time that once you started get going,half the conversation would go somewhere else and in a good way it would start to untap into things and insights and information that you went off that agenda because they now had an element of trust with you.They had an element of relationship and they would come to you and bring up stuff going,you know what?I’m really thinking about this,but in nine months,but can we meet more regularly to do this?And I’m like,sure,of course we can.

Chris: 16:21
Yeah,it’s almost like a muscle memory,isn’t it?You get into the habit of it and then one conversation leads to the other.It prompts your brain and your thought process.Makes you think and draw connections with things that you wouldn’t otherwise see if you were,you’re trying to figure it out on your own,at your desk or you were just in,more of a group meeting type situation and most of the catch-ups,one to one.

Mike: 16:40
Yeah,because the element I find is we have different personas right in,in work and the persona I have in a meeting room versus the persona I have as a one-on-one can be very different personas.And so you need to understand,the how far gap that is on some individuals.I have an amazing friend of mine,she’s awesome,but every time we’re in a group meeting,kill me now,because she just come out like,we’d have all these great one-on-one conversations.She’d be like,I’m so supportive of your work.This stuff is amazing.It’s so great.If she ever hears it,she’s gonna kill me.She’ll know it’s about her.And then in a group meeting,will absolutely tear us a new one,and we’re just like,why didn’t you bring this up three days ago?It was just part of their nature.It was in that moment they had put on a different hat.They didn’t even realize what they were doing,they were there to represent and fix those sort of things.And so you gotta be cognizant of that and know that it’s easier to get that more personalized feedback and off the wall discussion in those one-on-one sessions than it is in times where you’ve got those groups sessions.They’re a little bit more caged.

Chris: 17:44
Yeah,tell me about the hats that you wear,if it’s the personas or the hats,or whichever analogy you feel like you want to use.But the many sides of Mike.What are they?

Mike: 17:52
At one point my visual designer changed my team’s avatar.I have a fire chief’s hat on.Yes,look,there,there are a few different ones there.There’s definitely what I’d call the active listener,no action.And that,that’s really,that’s more of a leadership one-on-one,especially with your people.Cause a lot of time they’re amazing.They know what they need to do.They just need you as a sounding board.And like any good relationship,there’s times where they don’t want you to solve anything.They just want you to listen.So there’s definitely that hat.There’s the hat of the states or diplomatic individuals.So especially a lot of the time you are connected with way more teams than anyone else you have more context and empathy for way more of the organization than departments that anyone else does.And so a lot of the time you gotta play this mediator role.Inside these meetings,et cetera.Because you can see broader than they can,you can see that aspect.There is definitely sometimes the,as I said,the fire chiefs there is times where you’ll always find where stuff’s just gone wrong.Stuff’s on fire,it’s everyone’s on deck.It’s how do you not panic in those situations?The ultimate thing you need to be as a firefighter is someone who has the visual look of someone who’s not panicking and is in control.Sure.Eternally you can be panicking the shit,like you,you’ve gotta have that perception and show that leadership that you’re gonna be there whilst everything’s going wrong.And it’s okay.I’d say there’s dozens of others.

Chris: 19:17
What about the times when you feel like you need people to know that you’re quite concerned or you’re a little bit stressed?How do you present in that situation?

Mike: 19:27
Ooh.I look.I’d probably say with myself personally,a lot of people have commented that I’m,I generally am pretty,I’m a lot more empathetic,emotionally visible than a lot of people.So I can at times will display that even the right setting.I’d have to be around people who I feel like I can be like that at times.And then they’ll know that there’s stuff stressed.And I think it comes out with just you don’t mean to,but you tend to be a little bit more shorter with conversations and shorter with directions and not detailed on observations.And I feel like especially my team really picked up when they knew stuff was going on,because I’ll be like,okay guys,I just need to get,can you guys get something like this done?And like,Ooh,something’s gone wrong.

Chris: 20:08
So they know it,they know if they know you,they know that when it happens,yeah.They can read the signs,

Mike: 20:12
I think.There’s another side of me,which is probably my more personal side,which is,and something that a lot of people don’t know I actually have permanent muscle and nerve damage.When I was14I had an angle grinder come at my head and cut me to the bone of my arm with a lot of stitches.It was not fun.And that’s led to permanent ongoing pain,right?It’s on a daily level.It just depends on the day on how good or bad it is.Oh,wow.But what that always taught me was to always not always have this real stubborn streak,not to let it affect me.People are really close to me,always know the days that I’m struggling.But I think that aspect of always managing that has taught me to really handle resilience and stress and situations probably very differently to a lot of others.Cuz I just,I gotta work with it.I’ve always gotta sit there and deal with something,

Chris: 20:58
yeah.wow that’s incredibly self-aware,obviously,when you’re going through that and you need to prepare and get yourself ready,for any of those situations it must be really hard.But did you just have to learn that?Or work with people to,to help you with it as well?

Mike: 21:11
No,I think I’m just very stubborn and I just had to learn it.Yeah.And it takes it to my nature.Anyone who ever sees me reach for a painkiller is just oh,he’s having a real bad day.Cuz I will put off any painkiller you could imagine.Yeah.Like just the basic Panadol.I’m like,nah,not doing it.Yeah,I think it’s just a stubborn need to be in control of myself at all times.Yeah.It’s not in control of the situation around you cuz that’s,impossible and stupid.But it’s this thing where I can control myself.I will do that

Chris: 21:39
Do you have any rituals along those lines that,that kind of get you in the zone or help you prepare?

Mike: 21:44
There’s definitely a few songs that I will cue up and listen to.I’m very audio driven in terms of that way.Yeah,my go-to,and this is such a geek one my go-to for the last few months has been Dare by Stan Bush.Yeah.Yeah.So Awesome.Eighties Power Ballad.Yeah.The Transformers animated movie was in,used in lots of like montages,but it’s a great just,don’t matter what the darkness is,just keep daring to live your dream,and then just keep going for it type stuff and,things like that.Music will always get me there and Those moments where everything’s going wrong and I gotta sit down,I gotta push out material or a pack or anything.I’ll just find my right playlist,chuck it up and I’m in the zone.Oh,that’s a quick fix but yeah,I might have to check out your playlist at some point.This sounds awesome.There’s some good ones on there.He’s yeah,he’s done a few like that,isn’t he?Stan Bush.Oh,his stuff’s all very similar.Yes.Yes.But classic eighties rock power ballad,that’s for sure.

Chris: 22:47
Fantastic.Let’s talk a bit about the organizations that you’ve been in a little bit more,if we can.In and around,when you are in there,and we’ve talked a bit about yourself and your own approaches and got to know you a little bit better,Mike,which has been great.But I want to hear a bit more about the organizations that you’ve been trying to move along,move along a certain trajectory evolve change in some way.What are some of the signs of an organization needing to change and when do you know that something needs to be done?

Mike: 23:15
Trust.Trust is actually the biggest indicator to me of an organization and its health and its need to change.So there’s been a lot of organizations,especially cuz you know,a lot of the time I’m focused on service improvements,right?How do we best deliver the services we need to customers,to partners,to wholesalers B2B or the rest of it?And when you walk into these organizations and the first thing they like to do is tell you that all faults are someone else’s,it instantly rings alarm bells to me that there is a lot of underlying issues here.There’s stuff to be broken down that needs to change.There are obviously real world scenarios where people are doing the wrong thing,but when you blanket waive that,it just shows that you as an individual actually feel outta control with your job.You don’t realize it really yet.You don’t realize just how much you are actually unhappy with stuff.But that nature of finger pointing at everyone is really such a massive symptom of it.And,it’s not the cause it,but it’s just definitely the effect.I think that’s definitely there.The other aspect that I see quite regularly is,or at least a quote actually my dad gave me,which was,people don’t mind change,but I hate being changed.And so looking at how people handle adjustments in their workplace also gives you an insight in terms of how comfortable they are with the workplace,how supportive they are.The third thing I always look for is two particular tools,post-It Notes or Excel.If I find those in any service offering,it means the process is damn broken.You’ve got really elaborate workarounds.We were doing work at Medibank and one of the weird things I’ve seen to have done in my career quite a lot is doing what they call single pane of glasses like.Really creating a new system of interaction that sits over multiple systems and really simplifies the process.They’re basket cases of projects to work on,but they’re brilliant.I love’em when they they work well.We went into Medibank and Oh,just watching the retail staff try to support customers in a store and they’re writing20post-it notes per customer and sticking it on the monitor as they’re trying to work out health insurance,which is complex at the best times.Just sat there and I just went,this stuff’s not working right.And it was an interesting project for us because we created this new simplified quoting tool that they could use and we had so many defects and bugs were up to bug200.All the leadership were angry at us and we were using the test version in the training course for the retail staff.And we didn’t know what to do in one particular situation.We bought in the training,we bought in one of the people from the training course,and she just went,oh,you guys are all amazing.This is the best thing.This is gonna make my life.And you just watch this whole room,just go,oh God.She goes,I won’t even need to use post-it notes.I’m like,oh,thank Christ.And it was that realization,like that,changed everyone’s view of what we’re delivering.But those things just show you where you having to use that when you’re having to write notes in a notepad that sit somewhere else,you’re just gonna have so many quality problems.You’re gonna have so many customer experience challenges,it throws people off their game on how to communicate.Cuz they’re really focused on the tools to get around the system than they are really on delivering the customer experience or service that they’re looking for.

Chris: 26:43
It raises an interesting point,doesn’t it?Because that can obviously present an opportunity to change something.If you see that’s a process and it’s a workaround that people are using,they’re happy with it.It reveals a lot to you if you’re a strategist or if you’re looking to change operation,and actually it can be a bit of an insight in itself.You see how it’s running.You realize that you can almost evolve it in some way because you focus on that thing and then you make it into,you know,better version of itself,essentially.

Mike: 27:10
Definitely,and sometimes it lead to the most smallest change in the system that makes the biggest impact.We could spend millions doing this,and this,but actually if all we did was just do this one thing,Then we’ll actually save the company millions.And you can see those changes.Like I’ve seen ones where we’ve had it,where we turned something around in less than a week and saved the organization millions of dollars,improved quality,all the rest of it.And was just from observing one of those stupid little moments.And it would never have gotten up because it was never on a business case on its own.No one ever thought it was a problem without just seeing that sort of work around in practice.

Chris: 27:47
So what’s at the heart of that?Finding those little gems in the mix of things?

Mike: 27:51
Observation is one of the big key ones.And that can come across from two ways.It can come across from just your standard.Just don’t ask for permission,getting out there watching people or just be a curious mindset.Sometimes it also can be done via exposure of existing tools and practices to a new audience.I’ve got a classic example of that.Go on.We launched testing tools for the field technicians in NBN so they could run their own tests on the mobile app.And so we launched the first version of it and it fell over four times outta10,like completely broke.And every exec was on us going,what the hell’s going on?What did you guys do?You broke it.We’re like,we just showed the same stuff that the people inside the center are doing.We didn’t change the actual test.What the hell’s going on?Everyone’s panicking.And I’m just like,can you guys gimme like10minutes?And I’m like,sure.Okay.So I went around the corner to where the actual contact center agents were,and I watched them work and I’m like,Hey,how’s this system working today?Like,normal how’s this test working today?Normal how often does that thing fall over?Oh,four times outta10.Oh yeah.How long has that been happening?As long as I’ve been here.How long?I’ve been here three years.What do you do when that happens?I email that guy and he fixes it.I go back and I’m like,it’s BAU.Everyone’s losing their mind going,how is this BAU.Because they had a process,they had a workaround,they knew how to work.It wasn’t a pain point to those individuals.And that’s where the power of observation,either by exposing to a new audience or actually watching it in play yourself and you go,what are they doing?This is insane because it’s not a pain to the operator.They know what to do.They’re not uncomfortable with that situation

Chris: 29:26
We work in the field of design and experience design.Yeah.And it’s pretty normal for us to go and observe and to listen and to watch and research what tools or advice would you give to people that are maybe not trained in that area or,how would they go about uncovering some of these things?

Mike: 29:42
Ooh,that’s a good one.There’s two aspects to that.Designers and I’m gonna say something quite controversial probably through this,which is,Organizations don’t need designers to be successful.They can be successful with their design.What designers bring to the table is a actual approach and a scientific method to actually working out why this is gonna work or why it’s a good investment,or what actually out of it is gonna be the thing that actually matters most.So when we talk about then can others who are non-designers go do the observations,all the rest of it,that sort of stuff exists.Lean Six Sigma with Toyota,with their famous,with the Genba,all the rest of it.That’s all about that power,observation,and just note taking where people stumble I always see is by not stepping back and testing data to validate how often it occurs.Because observation can be very hit and miss.You can go through days without seeing a cool problem to solve,or you can see one problem and get fixated on it and without then making sure,so just taking the notes,making sure you write enough details,get the ticket number,whatever it was working on.Anyone can do that,challenge yourself to then go,but how often does this occur?And that I think is what designers just do naturally because they want to know the impact and the size level of improvement this will bring to the organization.That’s what others need to think about and add to it,because that will help your business case anyway.If you sit there and go,oh man,they do this for six minutes,200times a day in this whole team,that’s my business case right there.

Chris: 31:34
So it’s not so much a methodology as such,or is it more of a mindset?It’s more of a attitude.It’s a mindset and attitude.

Mike: 31:41
Yeah.Yeah.Tools change,techniques change,and they should,we evolve and learn new ways of doing things.We learn new ways of communication.We learn,organizations will go on their journey on that.Take,how might we statements,I,I’ve stopped using those a long time ago,right?But they’re such a crux for a lot of designers.They’re about trying to focus people and individuals around the business problem and the outcome.I’d rather focus as I go in there now going,what’s the evidence?What’s the value and what’s the opinions?And then I determine what the project we need to do based on that,which is something I stole from Harriet Wakeman,from I A G.But I was just fell in love when I learned that technique off her and use it now.And I think that’s the key.You’ve,we’ve gotta evolve,right?And the people around us,the business people we’re working with,the customers we’re working,they’re all evolving too.So don’t fall in love with the tool,fall in love with the curious mindset that tool’s exposing for you.

Chris: 32:35
Yeah,really interesting point around evolution within the organization and proficiency is coming up,people are bringing that capability in house.There’s a lot of effort going on in that space,within transformation more generally,CX isn’t something that’s owned by one team anymore.Everyone needs to be across it.People need to know who their customers are,end users,personas,all of that.Feels like it’s a generic language that everyone’s talking now,and some people admittedly have got different understandings of those terms and phrases.But what’s your view on all of that?It’s almost becoming democratized,

Mike: 33:06
which is good.I think the challenge that we see though is that people yet again,focus on the tools.And so it’s oh,I need personas or blueprints or something.And I’m like why?What is the point or purpose of this?Is it.Is it for communication?Is it for realization?Is it for prioritization?Is it for this or that?And I think the good thing about the aspect that people have become more aware of this is it makes it easier conversation,especially for strategy design than anyone who’s trying to be this more customer centric human centeredness to articulate why they’re trying to be there and what they’re trying to do and align to purpose.But if you focus too much on the tools and methodology and about trying to make these gatekeeper processes,you’re gonna lose the point of what you were there to do and probably add too much time.Design usually gets,a lot of bad stick on saying it takes too long to get it.And especially cuz it is a hockey stick.You see this thing where it’s like not a lot of value because there’s all this so much scientific research and hypothesizing and work going on and then suddenly bang and then you’re like,where the hell did that come from?But,oh my god,that’s amazing.Creating really rigid gateway systems and not gonna help you with that flexibility to move and change within there based upon the program or work you’re working on.And so I think it’s how do you get that balance?How do you understand the need and how do you get,the stakeholders on that journey to know when they should be asking for something or not,or understanding why you are saying that.You need to add that in the project.And the biggest complaint I hear from a lot of designers,a lot of time is they don’t engage us early enough.I don’t have time to do all this stuff now,and a lot of time I gotta challenge that and go are you doing the right stuff?Or do you think you need to do that stuff?Or is it vice versa?How do we educate and bring people on the journey to go,yeah,we do need at least this time to do this.

Chris: 34:58
But is that because the ask that’s coming down from,from the seniors,from the stakeholders,from the board,it’s framed a certain way.You are,you’re passed the package in a way it’s a problem to solve or even it’s prescribed as something that you have to go and do.How do you respond you’re an intrapreneur,thinking about that mindset that you’ve described,how do you respond in those situations?

Mike: 35:19
I think I’ll go back to the evidence and value opinion to be honest.Because when you run that as a session,it is really about going,okay,I understand goals and achievements.Like how does this project look good?What is the value to the organization?Capturing those points allows you to anchor on what good looks like at the end of it.Then anchor on why do you think this is,where’s the need in the market or the rest of it?And asking the question,do we have that understanding of where does this come from?And that difference between evidence and opinion really drives to me what I need to do.If everything has already got research,if it’s already got a McKinsey report,if it’s already got this and it’s all an evidence and value,then it’s all about how do I best deliver this solution And the art of compromise.If I got a lot of opinion,and then the senior leaders with me are like actually,you’re right.We don’t actually really know this.Then it helps the conversation to start going,actually,we need to spend some time validating this.It’s a validation exercise of these opinions.

Chris: 36:16
Coming back to the point though around the democratization.If the majority of the organization isn’t as,I guess independent in their thought process as you’ve just described,and taking the order and running with it,how do you get around that when presumably the majority are just going with the flow and they’re trying to get things through because that’s what they’ve been told to do and that feels like the right thing?

Mike: 36:41
Pick your battles.You can’t be anywhere,everywhere.You’re never gonna have a big enough team to do it,and that was exactly my life at NBN,right?You’ve got.Hundreds of millions of dollars of development work going on at all times.You’ve got people who are making judgment calls and they have to make judgment calls,right?Pick the areas where you think that you can play best and deliver the best value and help steer in those locations and be comfortable with being uncomfortable,that there are gonna be areas which might work,might not work.They could actually accidentally deliver something amazing by accident.But know where you need to support because you can’t.It’s a path to madness trying to fight that machine because it’s just too much going on.And so the only other options that come out of that then is you show with your style that you are more effective,more often.You’ve got more consistency in how effective you and what your deliverables are because of the way you approach it,which then gets people curious and want to come on board.And the only other options that come with that then is either.I manage my pipeline of work to suit the level of resources I have,or they sponsor me to start to grow.And I can increase the level of influence and change I have.But I’ve always gotta have in the back of my mind going,I can’t control everything.There’s always gonna be something going on around me.

Chris: 38:02
And has that changed for you?I’m sure the answer’s yes maybe think about how has that changed for you over the course of your career or in recent years?Have you taken a different outlook?Have you experimented with a few different things?What’s been your journey in that respect?

Mike: 38:19
Yeah,definitely,because I worked out a while back going that there’s.Six areas of focus.You can only pick one major and two minors,almost like a uni degree,right?And those areas are,you can be the explorer,you can be out there completely always looking for the brand new market,the great unknown,but you know what your risk there is.You’re gonna be seen as someone who’s not literally delivering anything or the path of value realization so far out because it takes years for those strategies to come in place.You can be the shaper who’s there to take at least an a point in direction,a north star,a guidance,one of those ideas you were talking about earlier,but shape it and change it and make sure that it’s fit for purpose.You’re still in that strategy space,but you are,you’re more targeted in what you’re going after,and you’ve got a little bit more where you’ve got the aspect you’ve been asked to be there.You can then go into the space where,and I’ve tried to do this as well,which was worked for a little bit,but then became the path to madness.And I’ve seen design practices,for example,go get called Dr No through this process,which is you can be the advisor influencer,right?So you are,you’re that person sitting there in,in just their project meetings going,yeah,but have you thought about the customer?We’ve all seen them,right?They’re there for a good reason to begin with,which is to bring in that customer centricity.If all they’re doing is trying to be that little angel on the shoulder without anything behind it,people get frustrated with’em and go around them.You can be that super SME that people just tap to engage on certain things which help a little bit shaping.And then the last two models are like,embed yourself in major transformation projects,but at the end of it,you’re pretty much culled.And then lastly,ongoing agile teams,right?Which are production houses.You’re not gonna shape the strategy in that area.You’re gonna do good consistent work.You’re gonna make sure everything is incremental improvements,but you’re not gonna drive it because you are delivering the aspect.And so you gotta work out,you’re really sitting more up this side.And what’s,which one are you playing the most?We produced massive elaborate service blueprints and capability blueprints from a business architecture lens.And we used those two to basically go here’s the service experience.Here’s all the pain points,here’s the shared capabilities,and here’s the shared capability gaps.If we invest in this one capability,which is used in this many service journeys,we’ll get more bang for our buck.And we’re trying to do that process,but at the same time,people were just like,yeah,but that doesn’t support my project,or it doesn’t support me,or it doesn’t show you how I’m doing.And you just found that people were like,that’s nice.And then just navigating around it.And that’s why I had to constantly learn how to change and pivot with the organization and where it was at in terms of the focus and try to bring in that scope.Because if you’re just trying to be everything,you need a team of a hundred,you become unfocused.People don’t know what your value is there.They don’t know what you’re there to do and achieve.They can’t explain you,and if others can’t explain you.You’re at massive risk.And so you really gotta focus in,and I think what I learned,I used to get really uncomfortable with the fact that there’s all this work happening without my buy-in.My team would go nuts going,oh my God,why aren’t we working on this project and this project?We should be working on this.And I had to get comfortable with the fact that I wasn’t there.And that was the only way I could keep my health going.And the fact that this is not all fallen out,definitely led to a lot of gray.But,like you go in insane,especially large corporate,you’re an intrapreneur.Look at some of these things,you’ve gotta be targeted in what you do.

Chris: 41:49
What about thinking about a new role and joining a new organization,and you’ve been through the process of meeting a few people through the recruitment process.You’ve done a few interviews,you may have done a presentation,you think you’re into the right space and,you’ve got high hopes for it,in your first few weeks,months,how do you go about,getting to know a place and I guess first of all,understanding the challenges that you are up against,but also the dynamics of the place that you think you need to work with.

Mike: 42:17
I’d be building strategy maps stakeholder canvases,and building out another one from Ryan Rumsey actually,which is the good partner model.Building out that strategy map,understanding,the hierarchy of the strategy,what is the strategy of the company?Is it growth?Is it service differential?Is it cost reduction?Is it this,is it that,is it good understanding to know what’s going to matter?Then working out,where do I sit in this organization?How’s my work linked to this?What does that mean?And then drawing that web around it that goes well,who else is also linked to delivering those outcomes?And then how do I build the relationships with’em so that we’re seen as one team and it is quite a bit of Miro Figma,canvas work,whatever tool you wanna do with building it out.But I’m literally on the journey about to start in a new organization next month which I won’t talk about yet.That is literally my plan at the moment.I’m building up my plan right now,going right when I start this,I’ve gotta build these out and I’ve gotta work that out to go,what is it I’m there to achieve?What am I gonna be measured on?What’s the company measured on?How does my approach link to it?And then,Work out really,of course they want me,but why did they feel that there was a problem or space to be filled that needed me to be there for it?

Chris: 43:28
Some people will hire with a mould or a certain type of person in mind,sometimes they take more of a punt,more of a risk where an intrapreneur coming in and we know they can do some good stuff.We’re not sure yet,but we’ll try them out.You know?

Mike: 43:42
I feel like I,every time anyone’s ever hired me,it’s definitely on the second one.It’s always done.He seems cool.

Chris: 43:52
But you’re being hired for that,right?Yes.They want you to align with the company objectives.They,Think that you can contribute to that meaningfully,obviously,but it’s also around knowing when to push the boundaries and knowing when to work with some of those constraints and get around them.Yeah.What are some of the things that you do in that space?

Mike: 44:12
It depends.Because it comes down to,everywhere has constraints,right?It’s gonna come down to resources,funds,regulation,all the rest of it.You’ve gotta understand what some of those constraints are and what you can,working within,regulation,legal,it’s outta your control,right?So you gotta park that and know that and do that.Things like funds,resources are controllable aspects when presented in the right fashion.And so learning those constraints,learning what the drivers are,what the measures of success potentially are for those,help me understand what I can do about them.And then it’s about creating almost back to being the same way I’d pitch a solution is gonna be the same way I pitch those moves in the organization to change that.And we’ve done that with things like even completely rethinking.Job descriptions,our KPIs,OKRs,you name it,right?Like I,I’ve actually gone through partway through a annual performance measurement and actually convinced them to change the measures that were actually in the middle of assessing me against,because we highlighted that the constraints were different and this was different.And what we were actually getting asked to do was different.And I actually went to them going,what do you want me to be out of these two things?Do you want me to be measured as successful in this,or measured as successful in that?And we changed that right through that process.But you always need the structure and the consequence.You always need that,the aspect of the what,so what and what next in it or what the situation,context,and response is.And that storytelling helps you with dealing with that.

Chris: 45:39
This is a slight tangent,but how do you bring that mindset through your teams.How do you make them feel comfortable with some of this as well?If you’re leading a team,they know what you are trying to do individually,but they also want to help out in some way.How do you foster that culture of innovation there?

Mike: 45:55
It’s creating that psychological safety and being able to test trial and be fearless within the team.So creating the right purpose of your rituals as a team.Creating the right spots where you have innovation concepts or ideas or where people can bring up and test stuff where they can self volunteer each other to help out and devote some of their time to each other on it as well,are all really good things,especially when you’re trying to run that intrapreneur group,being yourself open.As well for time and setting up time where people can come in and just test ideas on you.I think there was a corner of the building that there was not a single whiteboard that I didn’t take ownership of with my team,cuz I’d come up to me and they’d be like,oh,so I’m thinking of this.And I’d be like,awesome.They’re like,oh shit,he’s getting up from his desk and then I’ll get out the whiteboard marker and would test and play out that idea and tease it out.So those things were all important and being able to be there for that and support’em on it.The thing I had to learn in my leadership journey through that,because I,I didn’t really get trained in being a leader and I’d still say there’s many areas I needed to develop.One of the things I needed to do was make sure that I didn’t take their concepts and run with it.And so what I needed to always do was open the doors to them to connect to the right people and talk about it and support them,step the hell out so they can present it.Then at the end of it,help wrap that up and the actions and the conversation.And by giving that meant that I gave them a lot of trust in what they were pitching.I was showing my support because I was letting them do it.And then I was making sure they had the right friendly audiences to work with it.And that’s really important as a leader to do that.I was going into those sessions originally and was going,oh my God,this person’s done this amazing thing and this is all it is.And basically spoke for them,which really devalued what they did.Oh my God,looking back now,I’m just like,what a tool mate.And I’m so glad they pulled me up.They felt psychologically safe to tell me off,which was amazing,and so did my GM.And that helped make that change.And once you make that change,your team feel like they can actually come to you with ideas and concepts.And I’d tell you what now,like there are certain.Ideas and concepts that my team came up with that I now use on a constant basis.And I tell’em that I use it all the time,but ways of thinking of using like Cynefin Framework,for example,to measure how successful the service should be and the level of effort in it,like that was ideas from people in my team and promoting those and taking those and giving that sense of accomplishment with it.That’s how you create the right culture to have that teamwork because like I said earlier,you can’t be there everywhere.And as a leader you are just working with the stakeholders to create the space.You need those other people there to actually deliver the outcomes.

Chris: 48:40
And how do you let them know that safety is there without just making an announcement one day?About what you say or how you act.How would you establish some of that feeling of safety?

Mike: 48:51
It’s definitely about some aspects of being vulnerable,demonstrating yourself.Throwing I,I think some of the aspects I need to do was throw out some,I knew triggering controversial statements for one or two people to jump in where I just knew it was gonna trigger them.But it created the aspect for the rest of the group when I was like,oh yeah,I’ll get that to create then a dialogue.And then later on,one of’em turned to me and went,you deliberately baited me,didn’t you?I went,yeah,I totally did.Because I wanted everyone else to feel comfortable watching that exchange and knowing nothing happened through that.It takes time to build psychological safety.It’s not something you can just walk into a meeting and go we’re now,psychologically safe,it’s a continual set of behaviors.It’s a continual set of authenticity and presence and I.It took me a while to learn what presence actually meant.Especially in the society we are now,like the amount of times I’d pick up my phone before or my watch and get look at messages and team calls and all the rest of it,I was devaluing what I was doing.I was devaluing the meeting.I was devaluing the level of attention.You’ve gotta make sure when you’re in that session,you’re in that session a hundred percent and that then creates that environment for you.I always say that the purpose of executives,and I’ve always,said this to my team and I’ve said,when I go pitch to the C levels and the rest of it,when I go pitch to a C level or an exec,it’s not about getting their endorsement.Sorry,it’s not about getting them to go.Yes,it’s a default.Yes.It’s for them to challenge me or to teach me something.I don’t know.That is what my mental mode is going there.And I said,that’s the mental mode.You need to go in there.If you’ve put something together,you know it’s the right thing to do,but.The only difference might be you just might not know something out there.And that’s happened to me.Like I learned that one pitching to some of our EGM executives and I went there and they went,fantastic idea.However,Mike,what you don’t know is this is about to happen.And I just sat there and went,shit,if that happens,we can’t do that anymore.Give me a week,I’ll come back to you with a revised plan and not coming up with something right there at that second or not.Or not,or discounting What they said to me was really important and built trust.And half the time they were just like,what do you recommend?I’m this okay.They wouldn’t even challenge they just,unless they’d heard something that needed specific,but it was that mental mode to go,they are there to tell me stuff.I don’t know.That is what their purpose is.Otherwise it’s a default.Yes.And you look at things like the Amazon six page brief and all the rest of those groups that,that try to build those intrapreneur strategies.If you pitch it,it’s a default.Yes.The people who wanna say no have to convince everyone else because you’ve already put the diligence in by building out those briefs,by answering those questions,by knowing those challenges.So yeah,it’s quite crazy.

Chris: 51:35
That’s it.Crazy is the word.Let’s take a step back.We’ve had the fortune of hearing from you,for the last little while and,lots and lots of anecdotes,lots of approaches,stories things that would,would just help out in that situation.It just feels like we’ve covered a lot of ground here,but just taking a step back.With all of those things that you’ve tried,and you’ve obviously evolved your approach a little bit over the years,how would you summarize the impact Using some of those tricks and techniques that been describing through your intrapreneurial efforts.

Mike: 52:05
I think probably one of the proudest ones,we were implementing a digital solution with.Physical trucks.It was not with NBN,it was something else trying to keep some of the details disclosed.It was using live GPS tracking and live force monitoring.And as a result of this,it actually saved someone’s life.So they actually ended up in an accident in the rural area.They were out of mobile coverage,they’re outta everywhere.And from the digital device,which mind you,we had the unions on our butt for.It actually informed us that an incident happened and we actually could get paramedics out there and this person was unconscious lying on the road.And I think there is not a moment where you sit there and you can go where you’ve done change,that’s actually created the ability for humans to be safer and alive.Nothing will ever beat that.You can talk about the hundreds of millions of dollars of benefits,but when you sit there and go,what’s the value on life?It’s not measurable.And that,that was such a career moment in a very scary way.Yeah.The funny thing is,the next week the unions were like complaining to me about why didn’t all the other vehicles have this device?And I was like,come on,you were complaining to me last week that we had it.But that really taught me the value of what’s in it for me.

Chris: 53:18
Wow.What a story.I mean that is big,isn’t it?When you know that you’ve made that difference.It’s incredible,really,and it makes all those,all those meetings,all those presentations,all the things that you’ve described somewhat worthwhile,doesn’t it?When you feel like make an impact like that.

Mike: 53:33
Yeah.I think that the lesson I want to add onto that in terms of impact and value,and I think the impact and value that intrapreneurs,innovators,et cetera,need to understand.Because this is where designers where I think they stumble is where things don’t go ahead.So part of my team,or part of what I used to try to keep internally for my team at NBN was this balance scorecard of value delivered.And value delivered to me was direct value from cost savings.It was perceived or estimated value from cost avoidance.And so a good example of that is with our jigsaw program that we had there,we didn’t need to hire2000more operators.Take all the cost of the salaries,the office space,the licenses,all the rest of it that was cost the company avoided,right?Cost moved or at least reinvestment opportunity is one that people miss.A lot of the value that we drove,especially by being experimental,is spending10K and realizing that an idea is no good,but in the traditional world,it would’ve gone ahead and they would’ve spent4million before they worked that out.And so people who work in this space will get down going,oh,we spent all this time,we didn’t get the value out of it.No,you saved the company4million that could be reinvested somewhere else.So celebrate that.Celebrate those aspects.Every time you work on something and it’s not proceeding,go ask someone,how much would it cost us to deliver this?And that is the cost that you avoid the organization,because what’s the point of building it,delivering if no one’s gonna use it?It’s a waste of money.And it can be reinvested somewhere else.And I think a lot of the time when I’ve talked about the great things were delivered,a lot of it was actually that.It was like,here is how we’ve used this mindset to de-risk your organization to ensure you’re investing in the right things and we save this money,which you reinvested into these platforms.

Chris: 55:37
Yeah.I suppose it comes down to the story and how you present it.Yeah.In a way.Yeah,  because the hockey stick can be just the hockey stick or it can lead to other things.You can obviously join one process or one set of discussions to another really evolve that story or use it, to line up the next rounds of work.It doesn’t have to stop when people think it’s all over at the end, you’re having your end of project drinks, everyone’s just thinking it’s done and dusted, but actually there might be something that you can leverage from that to take forward.

Mike: 56:07
Yes, exactly. There’s always new learning.There’s always new things.And it’s having,I think as I said earlier, that resilience and that curious mindset is what keeps you going in this. Yes, there’s gonna be moments where you’re just like, oh my God, what did we do?But you gotta pick yourself back up and know that everything you’re doing is actually always of value.

Chris: 56:27
Yeah.Brilliant.Thanks so much, absolute pleasure having you on the show.I can’t tell anyone obviously what you’re gonna be doing next, but they’re gonna be very lucky to have you.Maybe you can just tell people how they might be able to find you if they want to get in touch and ask you a question or anything like that.Maybe there’ll be some connections out there that, that want to say hello.

Mike: 56:44
Generally LinkedIn is obviously the best place for me for people who are looking in more of a mentor aspect.I’m also on ADP list so you can always even book official times if you wanna do that aspect, but definitely reach out, connects with me on LinkedIn.As it’s obvious,I love to chat.I love to share.I love to story tell.I don’t think anyone who’s been watching listening to this,doubt but yeah, been an absolute pleasure,Chris.I was so looking forward to this all week,oh,brilliant.We’ve had a lot of fun.I’ve had a lot of fun,for sure.Yeah.Thanks so much,Mike.I’ll stop there,but thanks again.Thanks.Have a good one all.

57:15
Okay,so that’s it for this episode.If you’re hearing this message,you’ve listened all the ways to the end,so thank you very much.We hope you enjoyed the show.We’d love to hear your feedback,so please leave us a review and share this episode with your friends,team members,leaders if you think it’ll make a difference.After all,we’re trying to help you,the intrapreneurs kick more goals within your organizations.If you have any questions about the things we covered in the show,please email me directly at chris@companyroad.co.I answer all messages,so please don’t hesitate to reach out.And to hear about the latest episodes and updates,please head to www.companyroad.co to subscribe.Tune in next Wednesday for another new episode.