Really. Rarely. Relational: Facilitation mastery for forward-thinking leaders

“Some people are really good at corralling people towards a decision and doing so in a way that makes everybody feel like they weren’t bullied into making that decision.”
Lina Patel

This month’s theme

In this episode, we delve into a crucial aspect often overlooked by organisations: the importance of cultivating strong relationships within teams.

Amidst the hustle of daily tasks and navigating organisational change, it’s easy for us as leaders to prioritise the ‘doing’ over fostering meaningful connections and having open conversations.

Specifically, we are focussing on actionable strategies that leaders can take on to initiate a positive transformation within their organisations and communities. Join us as we uncover the power in collaborative and constructive relationships and its impact on success.

In this episode you’ll hear about

• Mastering your first steps in facilitation: Tips to kickstart a career in the industry
• How to identify different mentoring styles and the benefits of each approach
• Ways to bring people together and inspire collaboration
• The ways in which environmental factors can influence the success of a project of facilitation session
• The importance of creating inclusive spaces that meet diverse needs

Key links

Lina’a Consulting Firm
Lina’s LinkedIn
The Value Web
Polykala
Company Road

About our guest

Lina Patel is a Facilitator and Collaboration Designer. Her mission is to alleviate needless workplace suffering and bring more kindness into the world, one team at a time.

With 25 years of experience in the public and private sector and in areas like finance, compliance, risk, and project management. She has been part of over 65 teams and facilitated more than 500 meetings onsite and online. She makes most sense in groups.

As a facilitator, Lina takes care of the details whilst supporting groups to achieve their goals, through memorable gatherings. She is inclusive and comfortable asking tough questions to get to the heart of the matter.

As a coach, Lina creates a supportive environment where people can think deeply about their intentions, boundaries, and the broader purpose of their work. Her speciality is getting things done, calmly.

About our host

Our host, Chris Hudson, is a Teacher, Experience Designer and Founder of business transformation coaching and consultancy Company Road.

Company Road was founded by Chris Hudson, who saw over-niching and specialisation within corporates as a significant barrier to change.

Chris considers himself incredibly fortunate to have worked with some of the world’s most ambitious and successful companies, including Google, Mercedes-Benz, Accenture (Fjord) and Dulux, to name a small few. He continues to teach with University of Melbourne in Innovation, and Academy Xi in CX, Product Management, Design Thinking and Service Design and mentors many business leaders internationally.

Transcript

Chris Hudson: 0:06
All right, howdy wonderful people and welcome back to the next company road podcast episode where we explore what it takes to power positive change within organisations and positivity within people in a way that delivers impact at scale in some way or another. So in previous episodes, we’ve talked a lot about strategic outcomes and how we should all be focusing our efforts to align to both organisational goals as well as personal goals. And that all makes sense. But as we go deeper into this month’s topic of setting up organisations for growth and setting the foundations for growth. And innovation in some way or another. And what really makes businesses thrive. We need to get a bit more real about it. So I’m thinking more human, more relational, possibly more confrontational about the emotional drivers of business and things that sit within us as people that are really powering. businesses at a much deeper level. So I’m seeing that, we’re often so caught up in the do that, that people part is, is often a little bit left behind and we can seriously damage ourselves as well as some of the professional relationships that we hold if we don’t manage those situations in the right way or in a sensitive way. So to help us navigate this topic of relational working a little bit more skilfully I’d love to welcome to the, to the show, the wonderful Lina Patel. Lina, welcome to the show.

Lina Patel: 1:19
Thank you for having me, Chris.

Chris Hudson: 1:22
And, and thanks for so much for joining us today. I’ve been wanting to, to talk to you for, for a little while on these subjects. So thanks very much for coming on. And Lina just to introduce you. So you’re a facilitator and a collaboration designer and your mission to alleviate needless workplace suffering and bring more kindness into the world, one team at a time, which I really love as an ambition. It really resonates with, with me and what we set up to do with this podcast as well. So, so that’s, that’s just amazing. And then with. 25 or so years of experience in public and private sector. You’ve looked at finance, compliance, risk, project management. You’ve been part of a number of teams, 65 or so and you’ve facilitated more than 500 meetings on site and online in the workshopping and in the facilitation that you, you manage. And it feels like from what you say, your zone of fire is when you work in groups and you, you help individuals and teams really come together. And bring together quite memorable gatherings and meetings and you’re very inclusive and you’re comfortable asking some of the tougher questions that get to the heart of the matter. So it’s going to be really cool to talk through some of these themes with you. I want to start, you know, Lina, it feels like there’s a massive surge. in facilitation and, some evolving practices that are designed, maybe not just to direct people, but to also steer and empower teams. And it feels like empowerment and enablement is very much at the heart of what people if they’re setting up individuals within their teams, if they’re trying to set them up for success, then, then facilitation is a really important part. So maybe we just start with you and, and how did your passion for this area really begin?

Lina Patel: 2:54
Yeah, great question. I have the unfair advantage of actually having been working with groups from a very young age. So, I’m a first generation migrant living here in Australia and I just grew up in a really chaotic migrant household. And so from quite a young age learned how to read the room. And learned this skill of picking up on the tiniest atmospheric condition. I think you kind of add to that a fairly usual experience for migrants around coming to a new country for, for anyone who’s sort of moved to a new place. Really not knowing how things work, so having to pay really close attention. So. From quite a young age my, my deep need to belong and to be loved by my fellow schoolmates and, whatever other groups I was in meant that this was a skill that served me really well. What I didn’t realise until I was well into my working life you can actually get paid for that. So, um, I um, moved into facilitation, sort of formally, as in a, Started to be my job title about a decade ago. But prior to that had had about 17 years in the, in the private sector between professional services and financial services. And, and even while I was working in financial services I was in project teams. So just very much in a consulting kind of way of work. And to be honest, I’m not sure I really knew that a facilitation was this was kind of separate thing you needed to build skill in. But I happened to see some fantastic managers throughout my work life who were able to have this really outsized kind of influence. They were from my perspective really felt like they were punching above their weight class. And so sort of having this experience of these people who were like definitely not the most senior person in the room, but we’re really able to influence. Outcomes involving, really kind of complex situations is probably what got me thinking that there’s something to this that’s not just about, the usual kind of things you would see in a senior person. There’s something extra happening here. And then that kind of slowly led me to realise, oh, wow, that’s like a whole separate field like of work that you could, that could be your job. Thank you.

Chris Hudson: 5:13
Yeah, well, and, and when you were in that situation and you were noticing other people do it, do you think, was it, was it known to you at that point that it was a really complex situation that you were in and that those people were able to navigate some of those situations more successfully than others? What were you picking up on at a more detailed level?

Lina Patel: 5:31
Yeah, for sure. So I, I would have been in the room kind of at a, analyst, senior analyst kind of level on projects and would have been supporting these kind of managers or senior managers in. And so we would be located within kind of transformation projects, right, or strategy delivery teams. And these teams historically don’t have a lot of like direct control over how things happen that, we’re sort of teams that are brought in to implement something. Right. That the executives are wanting brought about. But within the organisation, you, you actually don’t have, I mean, you have the executive’s blessings, but you don’t have kind of those direct line management ways of getting people to do things. So I suppose what I noticed was that some of the people I worked with were able to. Move people towards points of agreement so they were able to move people and were able to bring in different people’s needs and sort of weave them together. Honestly, it did seem like magic to me. It’s only in hindsight now that I can see. Oh, yeah, they did a lot of preparation. Oh, yeah, they had all of those pre meetings. Oh, yeah, they came, we prepared all of this kind of material or these assets that we brought into the session, right? We, we weren’t just rocking up with notepads and pens and just wondering, looking at each other. There was a lot of preparation went into some of these sort of decision making meetings. Thanks. And I think it was, I guess, yeah, you touched on in my work experience, I have been part of 65 different teams or just over and that is what happens when you’ve had a consulting career. And so there’s also that advantage I have in that I have just seen a lot of people in action and just, I’ve just had a lot of examples to look and compare. And of course, across all those different teams, you come across just some. stellar operators that just make you think, wow, how did they get everybody to a yes? I just would, could not have imagined they could have managed to get this group of people to all agree on, I don’t know, a design decision or a particular direction. So yes, there’s a, there’s a few things there working to my advantage that there’s just a sheer quantity of times I’ve seen this done. And in amongst that, just, I have been very fortunate to have worked alongside some really great facilitators.

Chris Hudson: 7:59
Hmm. Yeah. I mean, I think that’s, that’s probably, if anyone thinks about that, they probably think of, a hand, a small handful of people that have inspired them in some way or another. But I think You almost don’t know why they’re inspiring in some cases like you point out. It’s kind of like this enigmatic approach. There’s like a tool set that people have and you never know, obviously everyone’s got their own backgrounds, but you never know what kind of formative training they’ve had in, in that area. Do you think this is something that is like a learned behaviour for the people that do it well, or do you think that, that, that’s a good thing? A lot of people coming into it now need to go through the paces of running through, accredited facilitation, exercises and courses and getting through the foundations and the principles that way. What do you think?

Lina Patel: 8:43
Well, a bit of, bit of both. So, I’m a really firm believer that facilitation is a skill and that it’s a skill that can be learnt. So, Earlier in my career, it certainly felt like magic but that was because I didn’t necessarily have a framing to understand what was going on. So yeah, for sure, facilitation is a skill and it is a skill that you can build. And the other thing with building that skill is that you build it contextually, meaning if the, if you want to be comfortable, facilitating complex situations, you build that skill incrementally and until you are facilitating complex situations, right? So you kind of start with where you are and build your skill where you are. And so if you want to be more comfortable with large groups, you slowly inch up the size of the groups that you are, you sort of need to be on your own. Sometimes there’s those that little chart of the concentric circles with the comfort zone, the learning zone and the danger zone. It’s really sort of looking for opportunities for you as a practitioner to be in your learning zone, and hopefully that can come through the work that you’re doing. I I am a lifelong learner and I am always enrolled in some form of further education to continue building my skill as a facilitator. So I’m always going to say, yes, go and learn from people who just. Each of us have different learning styles. I’m, I’m a very kind of group live group oriented sort of learning person. So online or on site, I’m sort of don’t mind either of those formats, but I learn really well in groups. So that’s what I do. I sign up for facilitation training that’s happening in groups and that just, ticks, ticks all the boxes. You still also need to practice. You’re not going to learn it all from blogs and books and podcasts. You at some point have to get in front of a group and try things out and make many mistakes to fine tune your particular style approach and, what your particular, yeah, approach to facilitation is. Personally, I’m, and this is just a personal bias of mine I don’t particularly put a lot of or value on accreditations just in general. So yes, there are accredited, accredited courses available in facilitation, which for people who. For whom it’s important to have a piece of paper and for whom they feel the kind of work they need to do needs that, for sure, go and do an accredited kind of training course. And also there’s a lot you can learn by hanging out with others who are doing this as well and, and yeah, taking it in.

Chris Hudson: 11:25
So if you were, maybe, maybe just breaking into your career and it was hitting its stride a little bit, what would be some of the starting points for anyone out there to start thinking about not maybe starting with observing, but also then moving into the practice themselves?

Lina Patel: 11:39
How people might start early in their career is. When you’ve attended any sort of meeting or workshop or some sort of off site or some gathering that you had a really great experience in, and you have the opportunity to connect with the person who organised that, start there. Ask them what they did because you will start to gather up lots of really interesting ideas of how other people are managing to convene really well. And. People are going to have all sorts of things that they are doing to prepare. So, before you kind of launch into kind of finding any particular books or, if you learn from books, of course, go and read a bunch of books. I’ve actually got a list of Actually, this is, I think, now the single tweet remaining on Twitter under my account because I’ve, I’ve mostly pulled away from, from Twitter or X, but the one tweet remaining is a photo of a pile of books, which are my facilitation go to books. I’m happy to send that to you separately. So there’s definitely books that I’m in and out of all the time. But I would say practice and talking to people close to the experience that you’ve had is a really great starting point. So that’s certainly what I did. While I was in financial services, I would attend these sessions and just, it being just wowed internally and would find a way of turning that conversation into a mentoring chat. So seeking that person out and saying, Hey, I really liked how you did X, Y, Zed, or I, I was really impressed with, flattery goes a long way. Hopefully you’re being sincere and you’re saying it, but, let people know that you had a good experience in something that they ran, because these things don’t just make themselves, right? And then checking with them on what it is that they did. So you want to start with what are the specific things they did? And then over time, you’ll get a sense that there’s, Different sort of mindsets or different sort of attitudes that make that really kind of, differentiate between different facilitation styles. Start with what you enjoy. Start with the kind of experiences you hope you’re able to create for other people. That’s a really fairly reliable way of directing your learning.

Chris Hudson: 13:58
Hmm. Hmm. And maybe, maybe if you could just bring to life some of the different styles that you were describing because, some people coming at it, they always bring their own. Personal brands for a little bit, but what have you seen out there in terms of options?

Lina Patel: 14:11
Yeah, so, depending on the kind of meeting or the kind of workshop, depending on what you’re trying to achieve from the workshop. Some people are really good at corralling people towards a decision and doing so in a way that makes everybody feel like They weren’t bullied into making that decision. Of course bullying people into something is totally a style So I don’t want to invalidate that that’s like a style, right? and I’ve experienced that. I’ve experienced being railroaded in being, bulldozed in meetings. So that is certainly a style. And sure, you can achieve outcomes. For sure, you can achieve outcomes through that style and it comes at a cost. Likewise, an overly friendly, overly collaborative, everybody has their say, that is also a style. And again, could be the very thing you need because the team is falling apart at the seams because they just don’t feel particularly heard or they don’t feel particularly included. If that’s your only style, again, it’s going to come at a cost because you might never actually be able to get to decisions in a, in a timely manner that fits into a project budget and sponsor requirements. So, I guess, in a roundabout way, I’m, I’m saying that a great facilitator has flexibility in the style that they bring forward. So, if you’re clear on what the needs of that particular like, why are you bringing those people together? Who are they and what are you trying to achieve together? That should start to inform what kind of style would actually be appropriate for them. So, One thing for sure, I’m actually not very good at strategy sessions where we’re starting with something off a blank slate. That is just not my style. I’m not very good at getting a group of people to agree on some very few points. Where my skill really kicks in is once you have your strategy, once you have a sense of what direction you’re headed in or where you want to go. I’m very good then at, my style is really good at getting people to think about how they might get there. So that’s around ideation. It’s around maybe kind of experimenting. It’s around exploring possibilities. Whereas the trying to get from a blank page to a few points that everybody agrees to, not my style. Other people are really great at that. They’re able to wind a conversation towards the point where the group have this wonderful vision or have this kind of set strategy. To put it in terms of kind of, enterprise speak I’m more of, kind of business architecture type of space. So I’m much more comfortable in that kind of architecture space rather than the strategy space. Strategies is a skill in and of itself. It’s just not one I’ve invested in.

Chris Hudson: 17:00
Yeah. Yeah. No, it’s interesting. It’s interesting. I mean, this is where facilitation and maybe leadership and how you make choices through your career or anyone make choices through their career. These, these things sort of interplay, right? Because I, we were just talking about how people in the, in the earlier part of their careers can basically take on these skills, observe. Learn as much as they could and direct it in a way that would feel, right to them. And then from what you’re saying, I’m also jumping to the other end of the spectrum where you’ve got a lot of leaders that, in theory should be brilliant facilitators, but they’re just not. So where is it not working at that level?

Lina Patel: 17:35
Yeah, and I think the first thing is that you need to actually value the skill of facilitation. for you to invest in it. I don’t, I know I’m maybe stating something obvious there, but as a leader, if you don’t value it as a skill, like why would you bother getting better at it? And certainly there is a facilitative style of leadership, like that in itself can be a, a style of leadership. For some people they’re just inclined that way and others have maybe had to learn it. So yeah, there’s, valuing it and then investing in it to get better at it. But it has to be something that’s actually, you actually believe is going to contribute to whatever your vision is. Because if you don’t believe it’s going to add to your vision you wouldn’t bother investing in it. You wouldn’t bother hiring people like us. Do you know what I mean? If you don’t actually value this as a, as, as something that’s an enabler to achieve your vision. Yeah. Why would you?

Chris Hudson: 18:35
So the scenario might be that a leader is, is his own, his or her view on what needs to be done and that’s pretty much communicated. It could be one option where it could still be open to discussion and there needs to be some exploration. Like you’re describing, there’s been some things that are defined already and then, it’s how we do it, how do we bring people together, what could we achieve together, what direction might we take it, how do we make it our own, some of those questions might come up and, that would be a different brief in a sense and I think that would be organisationally, you can, you can already keep an eye on what types of situations are feeling more frequent, in that respect, and you’d know from that. Whether you, you would be more happy with one, one of those scenarios or the other potentially. So I think it’s quite a good read it feels like in terms of how much facilitation is going on, as to whether it’s right for you. And then you can look at how the facilitation is obviously conducted and that might say something about the culture in itself as well.

Lina Patel: 19:32
Yeah, and there’s certainly I guess facilitation is also a really wide, wide field. So there absolutely are people out there who what they are really able to do is take something that a leader wants done and, and make it happen. And that might be a bit more directive in, in, in style. And it might be a bit more just a bit more pushier than maybe, say that I’m comfortable with, and that is a style and that works to get to outcomes. And sure, people might not be happy, but maybe happy people is not part of the picture that, maybe that’s just the cost, right, of, of getting from A to B. So, I, I do want to, I do want to say I actually don’t think there’s any such thing as bad facilitation. Right? It’s, it’s, I’m, I’m of the view that you kind of get the facilitation you’re prepared to invest in. So, if it’s feeling bad, I would kind of wonder about how things are scoped and what the conditions are in order for that to be the best thing that somebody could show up and do. Because I, I really do believe people are generally doing the best that they can with what they know and what they have. So, if you’re sitting there and you’re like, this is literally the worst workshop I’ve been in. I would just maybe kind of pause on that and wonder. I wonder what makes that the perfect answer. Like how, how is that perfect? What, what, what is contributing to what I’m experiencing here to be the best answer possible at this moment?

Chris Hudson: 21:07
Yeah, I think that’s interesting. I mean, you, you obviously can see a lot from that and you, you can learn a lot in terms of what not to do. I’m just reminded of, I’m going to go through the various brainstorms that I was made to attend. And there was always like some sort of lunch bribe or something, back in the, this is back in London advertising days. You’re kind of invited to spend an hour in a boardroom setting and there’s a flip chart in the corner and people would, basically expected to turn up and stay there for the full hour. And they’ll just, they wouldn’t give you any stimulus or, very little introduction. You say, okay, this is what we’re trying to solve. What are your ideas? And they’d write down anything that you said. And you’d leave the room after a sandwich you’d not know what would happen with it. And that, that was kind of it. And that, that kind of trick triggered a thought in my head. Now thinking back, actually, there’s probably a more interesting way to run it. And obviously you then adapt your own style and you bring your own self to it in a lot of cases so that people Yeah. Who know, that you would run it in a certain way as well, so

Lina Patel: 22:05
Yeah. Yeah. And then people seek you out, right? Like

Chris Hudson: 22:07
yeah.

Lina Patel: 22:08
People experience the Chris style of a brainstorm and they’re like, oh, that was a lot more enjoyable, productive, better use, all of those things. And you hope that that experience that carry that experience to the next choice about who they get to facilitate the next brainstorm.

Chris Hudson: 22:24
Yeah, that’s it. I mean, I became fascinated with this sense of how does it design for for experiences and things that were much more. Experiential, but immersive in some way, how do you make, how do you make like an everyday thing that you’re doing at work feel like, this massive, staged event, how can you bring in aspects of hospitality and staging from a musical event or a theatre production or whatever it is and actually make it, make that time that you’re spending with somebody, That you’ve invited into your world actually, stand out, make it stand for something special, is that similar to stuff that you, you’ve done as well?

Lina Patel: 23:00
I do love crafting the experience so that it is delightful. And I remember at some point, so I’ve now been self employed for five years. And prior to that, working in organisations and finding ways of making facilitation, the bulk of what I was doing. As well as doing kind of side gigs outside of my work and my sort of salaried role. And I remember sometime it might have even been during the early days of lockdown where, you’re sort of at home and various people were there’s a huge demand for online facilitation, which is a big part of what I do. And also around how to do that, like how to. make working online bearable and because, again, I’ve been doing it for years, that was something I could offer them. And I remember developing some training for kind of a network and they were inviting the network partners to participate. And it occurred to me I could actually create this training or set it up in the most delightful way possible, right? So the tools that I used and the online spaces that I used and, how I set everything up, it sort of occurred to me, there’s literally no limit okay, there’ll be a budget limit, surely, at some point, if you’re talking about a physical space. But actually, There is no limit to the amount of delight you can infuse your workshop experiences with. And it can come in all sorts of ways beyond sandwiches, right? There’s the way you put together your material, the sort of materials that you bring into for on site workshops. The literal materials that you’re bringing in, right? And the The way you set up your room. I use music in my workshops and I use them online and I also use music on site and I spend quite a bit of effort creating a playlist for each workshop. Right? I’m thinking about who are the people who are going to be there. What’s the sequence of the activities? What’s the mood I’d like to set? There’s no rule that says you can’t do that. And I have to say, in general, people are quite delighted by that. There’s a whole facilitation practice the M. G. Taylor method and there’s a great online resource called The Value Web, where there’s tons of talks and explanations of that method. With, from that body of work, I’ve really learnt around How you set up the sort of sonic space of an on site workshop and you’re attending to that. Now, how many workshops have you gone to where there is just a really fantastic playlist? I mean, other than the ones I’m in, or maybe ones with colleagues who are applying that method. Yeah, so using sound in ways that are um, add to the um, that also these are things that signal, Hey, something different is going on here. And so especially if you’re wanting to achieve something different to what is normally achieved, these elements of delight help shift people out of whatever bad mood they might be arriving in and hopefully into a more productive place to contribute.

Chris Hudson: 26:11
Yeah. Yeah, definitely. I mean, I think that that’s really important to me as well. I know we’ve, we share this, this interest and I think that it’s almost. The association of the mind with, another situation that’s not, I’m turning up to do this thing in the boardroom is, is something that can trigger, it’s almost how, how a restaurant or how, anything that’s an established experience that that you you would experience day to day. How can you borrow from those realms and bring some of that into delight in that situation? So, if you were looking to energise people, you might throw in something that people would expect to hear in a nightclub as they were putting their coat in the cloakroom, or, you might, You might do something else, that you borrowed from a TV show where the contestants were being introduced. You might, you might just take from some of those influences, but yeah, I love that. What’s what’s some of the things that you think, working really well what, what was some of the, I guess, what was some of the pleasant surprises from, from the work that you’ve done so far?

Lina Patel: 27:08
Ah, pleasant surprises in terms of things I’ve. added in or things I’ve discovered along the way that other people have done. Added in

Chris Hudson: 27:15
and then how have people responded to that in a way that you felt, in a way pretty positive about that they’ve, they’ve kind of, they’ve tuned into. Yeah,

Lina Patel: 27:24
yeah, yeah. So I mean with on site workshops for sure music is one of them. The other thing, it sounds really boring but I, I truly believe this makes a difference is how the space is physically arranged. I have an almost visceral allergic reaction to tables, right? So wherever possible, I will clear the tables from the space I’m in and find ways of arranging the chairs either in a Circle or even like a semi circle if it’s a bit too confronting to get people sitting in a circle. And and really sort of stage the space. So even if I’m kind of going on site and we’re using a meeting room, I will rearrange that meeting room so that even if it’s a room that they walk into for all sorts of different meetings for this meeting, it will be different. Literal things like having a a cloaking area. Right and what that looks like is just a table in one corner where people can put their bags right so that the floor space is clear. Yeah. And making sure there’s enough water and glass. Like just like you To me, basic hosting things, but when you attempted that, those small things, it, it creates a sense of welcome for the people who were there. In terms of online well, this was very delightful for me, and I think people enjoyed using it. I used a tool called Padlet, which is actually a tool. for schools, right? It’s been designed, I think, for teachers primarily. It’s been around for a very long time. I came across it in another course. I, I was that I was participating in and it’s just a very delightful, easy to use tool. It’s you can hold pictures and videos and text on a Padlet board and there’s just something very delightful about it. So, it’s something about the design of the product just is actually delightful. And a small thing that I did, or this is one thing that I do, it’s, I think this more delights me than maybe other people, but sometimes other people notice it. When I’m choosing stock images for slides, if I’m delivering training or on Padlet, there was the cover images on my different cards I go and choose images. From things that show cultural diversity, that show people with disabilities, that show gender diverse people. So just going, and there’s like entire libraries of this, right? So, going and specifically picking, as my cover image for the card that says, please get your space ready for our online thing and here are the things you’ll need to join our session. Using an image of a woman in a hijab, right, in a, in a scarf, getting ready in a space or, or, or showing a person with a disability, in conversation with, with other people. And there’s kind of different stock image libraries for this stuff. So, they’re a choice of image that I’m making, it’s a very deliberate choice on my part, and just looking to just say, hey, what we’re doing here is, is approaching this differently. And, and just trying to, move away from stock images, which are just very boring and bland, and don’t actually really represent the vast majority of, the people that I’m working with.

Chris Hudson: 30:47
Hmm. Hmm. Yeah, I mean, there’s, there’s a lot in that. I think there’s, there’s the, the norm and the bar that was set probably. When everyone went into using whiteboarding tools a few years ago and, and that, that has sort of plateaued a feel a little bit, a lot of hints and tips and tricks people that, we’re trying quite established techniques and they’re putting little emojis on, there’s an image here and there might be some embedded fun. That’s just placed in there somehow, but I think curating it and being really deliberate, it’s, it’s not like you’re just throwing things onto the page half an hour before you’re actually designing for the experience. What are people wanting to think, what, what would, what would inspire them before a week before or a few days before, 30 minutes before, and what do they need to know and what would delight them in that sense, but also through the experience of the, of the workshop, if you’re running the workshop, And, what does that narrative arc in a way look like and, and how can you best support that with some of the tricks and tips that you, you were just describing, when it could, it doesn’t mean every single one of your workshops would be the same either because you’d think about it every time you did it. So I think that. It feels like maybe an indulgence, but it feels like it would make a massive difference to somebody’s day if it was done in that way and not just in the same old way,

Lina Patel: 32:06
I’m going to add one more thing you just reminded me. I completely forgot. I’ve got a I use mural as my online thing rather than Miro. I’m not sure. And I’ll tell you why I went down that path. I worked with a graphic designer about a year ago to design branded mural templates for me. And they are so beautiful and I love going into my mural templates. And the thing is they look, they work as slides, so when I’m, when I’m in a presentation, I’m just using the board as my slides. They, they contain workspaces, and so as soon as a workshop is done, I can just hit print. And the entire workshop documentation pack is ready really quickly because the template has already been set up in a way that it’s got the sequence that we followed. It can be a little bit fiddly to kind of get all the elements in the right place. But overall, when people arrive at and at some point I’m going to have to show you because I don’t think I’ve shown you my, my mural templates.

Chris Hudson: 33:09
Yeah,

Lina Patel: 33:09
that’s it. People arrive at this online space and they, they can see a lot of care has gone into creating this online space. This is the same as arranging the room in a nice way. Right? And as soon as we’re done with the workshop, I’m able to ship it to you. The documentation and it all looks really great because a really talented graphic designer worked on it.

Chris Hudson: 33:34
Yeah, I mean, there’s something a lot to say about that. I think that, I suppose it’s turning up at the flower show or, seeing some landscape exhibits looking amazing or, you’re going to a really groomed. Architectural environment or community space. And you, you can kind of see that thought has been put into it. And I think that immediate reaction, even if it’s conscious or subconscious, it’s still giving you something that you weren’t expecting and it resets your expectation really around what’s going to then happen. So yeah, totally. I’m down with that. That’s good. We’ve talked a bit about inclusivity and I, I’m glad that you mentioned that point just before. When, when you’re discussing the images that you’re bringing into some of your stimulus, but is there anything more broadly around inclusivity and, helping people to get comfortable? and staying calm and, almost navigating some of that more human and emotionally safe space that, that you feel is worth pointing out.

Lina Patel: 34:27
Yeah. So that is also a skill that that people can build. And I guess the starting point is you need to actually believe in the value of having a diversity of views and opinions and experience. If you don’t value that, you’re again likely not to invest any effort in increasing your ability to, to, to work with that. So, a couple of years ago, I I guess through my facilitation work was invited to join teams who were delivering diversity, equity, inclusion training. I think that started about two or three years ago. So it wasn’t something I necessarily sort of, set out to do. However, there was sort of a crossover in interest. And so, We’ve been trying to work with with the community to sort of, to work through this with, with others. And, and, and we’ve, we’ve been really working with with with the different organisations to sort of, educate the community on, how we can, how we can best support the the data that’s being collected. Yeah, mostly, mostly Melbourne and Victoria. So I’m attached to three different organisations who, who offer diversity, equity, inclusion training. And the really wonderful thing is it’s, it’s a, it’s a really wide field, again, similar to facilitation. There’s something there for people who are just coming to the topic area. And a bit more of a, sort of a gentle introduction to the, the topic through to one of the other organisations I work with really sort of partner with, with organisations that have a high racial literacy or, or a high sort of literacy around these topics. And there’s different sort of work that you can, you can do there. When you have organisations who are able to use terms like white supremacist culture in a way that’s kind of grounded in, things like critical race theory, like that’s quite advanced thinking, right? For an organisation to be able to think in that way. Whereas For other organisations that have been able to get by without really having to be particularly gender diverse or culturally diverse or even diversity in terms of like abilities and, other aspects of identity. Where they are kind of, okay, what’s all this about? And maybe there’s some like compliance requirements coming in, or there’s some other sort of external pressure that’s really pressing on them to. Head down this path. I love that there’s people who are there in service of those organisations as well and are able to sort of introduce the concepts of diversity, equity and inclusion and belonging where without kind of beating people over the head with the with some sort of, you don’t, you’re not good enough stick.

Chris Hudson: 37:09
Yeah, different approaches, I think, because you, you see, you’re right. There’s, definitely the blanket. How do you, how do you get to a generic sort of stance on it and, and obviously set up that, across your organisation in a way that people would understand even at the very, My, the most basic of levels, like, how do you understand, get that message across? There’s definitely a skill set there, but also from your, from what you’re saying is that there’s the, there’s the ground up, from, from a very deep, deeply seated and, from, from the point of view of expertise, how do you bring that through? when it’s known really well by so many, so many practitioners as well. So yeah, let’s consider that. And probably a melting pot somewhere in between that you’ve got to figure out. Somewhere in

Lina Patel: 37:50
between, yeah. And I think I’m not sure I quite answered your question. There’s sort of one more piece I’d want to add in and this is, this is fairly new for me. So this is something I’ve just recently learned through, through training is that, Our this might sound really obvious, but I, but I’ll sort of just lay it out. I’m beginning to understand how my ability to acknowledge and accept the diversity present in myself. So the diversity within is related to how well I can welcome diversity outside and around me. So that, what that, what that is, is it gives people a path towards. Developing skills around equity and inclusion, which includes thinking about inner diversity. So thinking about aspects of yourself that make up your inner team. And I’m happy to provide links to the, the training where I sort of was, been learning about this. But yeah, learning about your, your inner team. and befriending the different aspects of yourself, even the really annoying parts of yourself that you’d rather not know. Befriending them and then as you become more tolerant in a way and welcoming of these aspects of yourself, there’s, there’s an, there’s an interesting correlation to your ability to, to be welcoming of difference sort of in the, in the world that you’re, you’re moving through. So that’s the sort of current path of learning that I’m on is that, beyond the technical expertise or whatever that might be, the know how of diversity. This is the doing the doing of or, inclusion.

Chris Hudson: 39:34
Yeah.

Lina Patel: 39:34
So in what ways am I being inclusive in myself? And then how does that translate into my, my practice of inclusion? as a facilitator and on any teams that I’m part of.

Chris Hudson: 39:47
I mean that’s like a heightened sense of self awareness. I really love that and I think that, there’s so much singularity it feels like in how, how identity and, how we, how we think of ourselves, how we represent, how other people, presumably, observe you in a certain working environment or whatever it is. It just feels and even in design, right? I mean you’re looking at personas and you’re looking at, quite quite narrow definitions and the fact that you’re talking about your inner team It’s like you could be a whole team of people you could have 11 on your team. You could have 50 on your team Doesn’t matter There’s a lot of

Lina Patel: 40:19
I don’t know how many i’m still discovering these random team

Chris Hudson: 40:24
And difference that you could be carrying around with you the whole time already Yeah, I really enjoyed that perspective. I felt like that, that would just blow some people’s minds, but it would be really opening for a lot of people and liberating for a lot of people to understand that.

Lina Patel: 40:38
Yeah, and it’s, and it’s quite relieving to let those, different voices have a say or even acknowledge them because, again, I could really be stating the obvious here, but That aspect of yourself that you really don’t like, well, I don’t know, something that you do that you’re like, Oh, I wish I didn’t do that. Anybody who displays that is going to be in your target. As somebody you don’t like, it just sort of seems like a, a very efficient way of, of coming to peace with being in a world of difference, right? Just start at home, befriend, befriend that, that characteristic in yourself, and it’ll be less irritating for you, in, in your workplace and in your projects and in your friendships and your family or wherever else those irritating people appear. They’re probably pointing to a team member you’ve forgotten or locked out of the, kept out of the meeting room.

Chris Hudson: 41:37
Oh, yeah. So, so there’s, there’s a link, there’s a common thread isn’t there between whatever you feel is like the worst part of you to somebody else in the world that obviously demonstrates that. That same characteristic or attribute.

Lina Patel: 41:48
Yeah.

Chris Hudson: 41:48
And maybe that’s going to help your

Lina Patel: 41:49
attention. Yeah.

Chris Hudson: 41:51
It might help with empathy in some way, it might help create an unexpected bond between you and somebody else that, you wouldn’t have chosen to spend much time with before, but maybe you can. There’s I was, this is going back to last year, but we were looking at a positive parenting course. And in that there was a thing it was discussing about how, how you obviously present in your. Your children demonstrate lots of things about you that, they’re holding up a mirror to you as a parent, all the things that they talk about. But it, one of the things they say, and I think this is pretty widely used, if you can see it, then you, you are it. So, if you can spot the characteristic or the attribute, then there’s something about it in yourself that, that you can, because you’ve, you’ve basically identified it, you then understand it. And you can make the link and that’s meant to be some sort of building block, but yeah, I’d imagine it’s, it’s a similar thing. You might find something within your inner team that you can basically connect to somebody else, potentially, I don’t

Lina Patel: 42:47
know. Yeah, that’s, that’s ingenious. I love that. If you can see it, you are. It doesn’t sound smart,

Chris Hudson: 42:52
but it kind of makes sense. I’m going to

Lina Patel: 42:53
take that away. That’s, that’s kind of like quietly profound.

Chris Hudson: 42:56
Yeah, It’s American, so yeah,

Lina Patel: 42:59
great. I love it. Unquestioningly. It reminds me. I guess one of the skills I’ve been building as a, as a facility. I think absolutely necessary skill. If you want to be able to get up and do this day in day

Chris Hudson: 43:13
out

Lina Patel: 43:14
is how you. Work with feedback and feedback can come in the form of criticism and it can come for, it can come in the form of a compliment

Chris Hudson: 43:24
and

Lina Patel: 43:26
where I’m at in my kind of, again, understanding and learning and training with this is that. When somebody provides you feedback particularly a compliment rather than kind of just being like, oh, yes, I’m the most wonderful person here. Instead just really kind of pausing with that and going, ah, okay, that thing which they noticed in me is also present in them, right? There’s something I’m demonstrating that they are noticing. So it’s sort of like the flip side of what you just, you what you just said, they see it in me and to me, I’m, I’m increasingly treating that as ah, that’s a clue of something in them that perhaps I can offer to help bring forward more, right? Because they love the way I’m doing it. But you wouldn’t notice it in me unless there was some aspect of that already in themselves. And so really yeah, of course, take the compliments and feel good about what, whatever it is that you’re being praised for and also see it as an invitation to be it’s a, it’s a relational invitation, right? So there’s something there around, ah, how do I lean into that compliment in a way where I, ah, can offer something, to this person to help them bring that out more in themselves and likewise with feedback that lands more as criticism there is something very, very valuable in that really, really listen kind of closely to that what is the accusation that they are making towards you because they’re telling you that you are trying to do something and not doing it very well, like that you’re going part of the way with something, but not really going all the way. So it’s. It’s possibly counterintuitive, but in the, the, the, what I’m trying to learn about working with criticism is to, it’s, it’s rather than stop doing that thing, I don’t like what you’re doing. Instead treating as do that thing more clearly, like you’re trying to do something and you’re not really doing it, you’re kind of like half doing it and it’s very irritating, hence the criticism and instead kind of go, Oh, okay, so I there’s something I need to do more off rather than backing off really, so both of those responses to feedback as a facilitator means that I am constantly in a learning mode. And when I’m constantly, I mean, I’m just happy being in a learning mode, but being in a learning mode, either because you want to learn what that compliment, ah, I wonder how I can feed this back to the person, or I wonder how I can learn from this criticism. It just makes the sort of. Harder bits, what people might imagine are the tough bits of facilitation. It just smooths the edges on all of that stuff.

Chris Hudson: 46:14
I really like that. I mean, there’s a sense of a barometer. There’s something really practical in what you’re saying. If there was a thumbs up or a thumbs down that you could see, as people were talking, so give me more of that or give me less of that. And it’s kind of like that, because if they’re giving you a compliment or they’re building on what you’re saying, then you can use that as an invitation to give them more of that. Whereas if they’re questioning it or criticising it, and I think some people. Deep down a much more detailed orientation. Just want to find out more about that thing before they, before they feel confident in it, then, then give them more of that. I think it’s a, it’s a good navigation tool. It’s, it’s really helpful. And I wanted to just ask about this because, you work with a lot of organisations and. Some, some presumably are probably geared up more relationally and, there’s a lot of discussion and, vulnerability and conversation is very hap very happy place for a lot of people. In, in the other world, commercial world, sometimes, I’m gonna say not all the time, but sometimes very commercially driven. It feels a bit colder from an emotional point of view. So, so that relational aspect in those situations is a different one. It’s a different facilitation job probably, but what are you seeing as being, the, the differences in, in both of those areas, but also, what can each of those, I guess, preferences, if you want to call them preferences, how could, how could they learn from each other in some sort of way?

Lina Patel: 47:39
Yeah, I feel like the answer is right there. Firstly, I do believe they can learn from each other. I think I have the wonderful honour of being able to work with a lot of different community organisations and I have had the opportunity to work with lots of say climate activists and environmental organisations. And there can sometimes be this idea held within those organisations of, Anything business related being bad and I’m just generalising here, but essentially this very negative view of commercial. The thing is that these organisations do need to exist within a commercial reality in terms of their funding, they have actual real costs, they’ve got outgoings, they’ve got salaries to pay, they’ve got other expenses, and there is an actual kind of financial landscape in which they exist. And to ignore the commercial reality and be overly focused on the relational, I think can really hamper. I think there’s a lot of progress in, yeah, I think there just needs to be a balance there. Likewise, now, as it happens, I’m not the kind of person who’s invited into very, very commercial there needs to be some desire for the relational, just because my style is so highly relational. I just wouldn’t be booked for those kinds of jobs, right? And so, again, the ways in which whatever we want to term commercial denigrates or downplays or just doesn’t value the relational. That comes at a cost, right? So, yeah. Achieve the outcomes you’re aiming to achieve commercially. But if your legacy is that you’re just kind of got a, leaving a whole trail of burnt out people and the thing is burnt out people there’s impacts on their families and on the rest of their lives. It’s not just a thing that’s happening at work. It’s like a societal impact of heading in that direction, overly so. So. It is interesting because I, at times I find myself in these more relational spaces oddly being the one like, Hey, what are the, what, what kind of returns are we looking for on this investment? Meaning, if we’re going to spend X amount of time and, whatever you’re going to be paying me to do something with you in the end, what kind of financial benefits are you imagining you are going to get? Are you reducing the cost? Are you, avoiding a risk? Are you. Is it going to boost your reputation? So like starting to bring in some of this, very gently, this kind of commercial lens. And in a, in a way, it’s, it’s for me, not that different to the equity inclusion conversations, right? We’re talking about something that makes us a bit uncomfortable and that we sort of know we need to have a handle on, a hand on, but we don’t really, so the businessy financey stuff. Yeah. So it’s a very, very similar set of like skills and approaches. Obviously, the content is different, but accompanying people to consider an aspect of something going on in their business that they would rather not look at.

Chris Hudson: 50:48
Mm hmm.

Lina Patel: 50:50
So this sort of commercial relational wonderful kind of like back and forth of that. When I kind of just think into it a bit and sense into it a bit more, it’s it’s not that different for me to having a diversity equity inclusion training because it’s about bringing an aspect of working in that is, has been marginalised, has been like, when we don’t do that here, we don’t do the relational check in things here, versus, oh, no, we’re not businessy. Thank you. You’ve kind of marginalised that. So in essence, the skills around equity and inclusion can also extend to these sorts of topics, obviously. I think you understand what I mean. Oh,

Chris Hudson: 51:35
definitely. Yeah. I mean, I think that there’s a really big point in that, which is that there’s a sort of, darkness being the absence of light and, whatever you kind of leave in your wake or you’re refusing to acknowledge or, or bring into that, into that business leadership conversation, it feels like it could be something that is. You’re, you’re choosing to ignore and put over there, but actually if you’re not taking it with you in some way, then, it’s making for a less rounded view. So you’re, you’re building bias into your business practice in one way or another, because it’s just leading you down the way that maybe is, is either, feels more comfortable or just feels a little bit, a little bit more focused on other things and not, not encompassing of some of that. So, yeah, I think, commercial business can quite easily fall into the trap of deprioritising, relational things or, anything we’ve talked about and, and vice versa. I mean, it feels like that, that kind of figuring out of what the priorities are within the context, is it serving the need of where the business, the organisation is going and what do we need to consider more broadly? It feels like you’d have to ask that. Quite frequently through, through, through working life, right? It’s always a question.

Lina Patel: 52:41
Yeah. Welcome to work. Welcome to work. Well, because the leadership,

Chris Hudson: 52:45
the other point you made, and then, which was, which is a nice one is, is just around, what, what, what your business or your organisation is doing for people and what are they taking from that and then taking out into the, into the wider world. That is, that’s a big responsibility then on any, any level. Leader of an organisation to basically make sure that that footprint, from your 100, team of 100, team of 1000, team of 10, doesn’t matter. But you’re actually responsible for those lives in some sort of way, right?

Lina Patel: 53:15
Yeah, and that is a particular viewpoint, right? Not everybody will agree that they are, that that’s just sort of like a particular leadership philosophy. And Yeah, not everybody will think of leadership in that way. And I guess if, if you have an instrumental is that the word? Or like a utilitarian attitude towards work that somehow you own your employees and. And yeah, so there’s like particular attitudes that, if you think that people are, they’re your employees and that, that you somehow own them and, depending on the attitude you have towards the employee employer relationship and what you think the purpose of work is and what you think the purpose of, all of those things go, go into the mix. Of whether or not you would It would keep you awake at night to know you’ve left a, a trail of burnt out people. Some people, they just might kind of see that as the cost of doing business.

Chris Hudson: 54:11
Or would it be the same people that would? From a more positive point of view, leave a legacy and, you’re, you’re setting up generations of, in succession planning and all the things that, the, the wider concentric circles and the ripple effects of, positive business can be incredibly powerful to say.

Lina Patel: 54:29
Yes.

Chris Hudson: 54:30
Yeah, it can work in both ways, I suppose. Hey I just wanted to ask about. In this month, as I was saying just before we started, we’re, we’re talking in this month about how, how businesses or organisations can set up for, for growth in one way or another earlier in the chat, we were saying, okay, well, some of these imperatives, if you talk about growth and performance, they can be a little bit polarising, but, but, but sometimes we’re thinking about, okay, well, what can we set up in our organisations to make them a success in some way? And, and how do we get. Probably some level of a shared understanding, shared direction commonality, some of the things that we’ve been talking about, but we’re, we’re talking about this topic of how to set the foundations. And I wondered what your perspective on that might be.

Lina Patel: 55:14
Yeah, so I’m primarily interested in the scale of the, of teams or individuals within teams. So that’s the scale that I tend to think of in terms of where the most joy and the most misery really sort of can be caused within work. That’s why that’s my chosen unit of, a unit of change. And. On a particular team, and this is going to just be, if you, if you’ve got a diverse team, you are going to have people there with all sorts of different attitudes and preferences around growth. Now, I, I, for example really enjoy. Growth and change and yeah, I, I actually really enjoy chopping and changing all the time and, being a consultant my whole life and been involved with lots of different sort of change endeavours. So that’s my particular inclination and my, my life is kind of set up in a way that buffers me and re I feel resourced to be able to do that. Other people don’t necessarily have that inclination and prefer to move at a, at a at a slower pace. And that’s where they feel they can do their best work and that’s where they can make their best contribution. So you’re necessarily going to have within teams and then there’s, something in between. These are somewhat made up spectrums I’m talking about. But just that we, we each have a different orientation towards growth. And so, granted, if, if you are in a position where you’re, you’re able to sort of seek out a team or form a team that sort of is suitable for you. I think earlier I was saying, find a ship that’s sailing at the pace that you want and jump on that one. Right? As part of your assessment of what kind of work environment would be beneficial for you or what kind of organisation you want to be part of, something about their orientation to growth is, is important to consider. It isn’t something I necessarily see mentioned Yeah, that, how do you understand how growth happens at an organisation? And, and also growth is multidimensional. So it’s also useful to clarify. Are we talking about growth in terms of like volume? We want to be shipping more things. So we’re talking about growth in terms of value, like we want our things to be of higher value. So, or are we talking about growth in terms of depth? Right. Are we talking about deepening relationships and about really sort of specialising in things, right? So even getting a clear on which varieties of growth float your boat to go with the ship metaphor, you know Just kind of like me personally. I’m much more into like depth. I’m much more into growing things where I am and depth, right? And so that is I’m going to enjoy work environments where that is possible you Whereas if it’s overly and outward facing growth, which happens at the cost of relationship growth, I’m, I’m going to suffer. So I’m not going to do so well in those environments. So again, just kind of knowing what variety of growth excites you and not all of us have the privilege or opportunity to be doing exactly what we want. So, I just sort of want to say that I, I do have a fair bit of freedom around this stuff. But yeah, jumping on a ship that’s moving at a pace that excites you I think is a way of orienting to growth that that’s going to kind of, help you along as well, rather than you kind of white knuckling it and being completely terrified and unsure and feeling really unsafe and your nervous system is just, Jack’d up and agitated the whole, like that’s not a great state to be operating in.

Chris Hudson: 58:54
Yeah. Yeah. I mean I think that Again, you’ve you’ve come out with a brilliant point, which is around, you know stepping outside of that singularity and definition, if anyone was talking about ourselves and that little bit What character, what’s our character and how do we present what’s inside, now we’re talking about growth and these, these terms that get banded around in the world of work all the time are often interpreted in a way that you think is commonly understood, but actually grows to somebody, might be different to me, might be different to you and what you value from that concept might be different as well. So I think if you, if you. Dig into that, like you were describing, you could probably find something within growth that you would, you would relate to, if you weren’t that, if you weren’t too, too hot and, sales and all the things that you think are associated with growth, you might find something that, that helps you grow relationally like you were describing. So, yeah, there’s, there’s a real breadth in that, that, that I’ve enjoyed hearing about it. And I really appreciate your perspective on it. Thank you.

Lina Patel: 59:52
Oh, no worries. I’ll throw in that my I have an aim to grow old with the people I’m working with, right? Like I’m at a point in my work life where. What I’m looking for is really long term working collaborations and long term, client like opportunities to kind of support organisations over the longer range. So growing old, growing old together is a kind of growth, right? Why not?

Chris Hudson: 1:00:18
Yeah, yeah, well it’s different from what some people believe the source of growth needs to be where you’re growing. Basically like a gatherer, you’re trying to gather from as many teams, as many bosses, as many organisations as you can, and you’re, you’re learning from everything, but that, that can be. Quite overwhelming as well. So there’s a nice alternative. That’s the

Lina Patel: 1:00:40
the part, those 65 teams I was part of. I’m done with that. You did that bit, right? I have done that bit. So now it’s the staying still and growing old with others.

Chris Hudson: 1:00:49
Different stage of growth. I love it. And yeah, thanks. Thanks also for mentioning the collaborations and things. I think it might be a good time just to, to finish up the conversation. Just by mentioning something that you and I are working on to the listeners just in case, in case there’s interest really, but we’ve started a bit of a, it’s exciting collaboration. I think anyway which is looking at some of the commercial and the relational aspects of what we’ve been talking about. Now we bring those two things together into now I want to call like a spectacular team. experience of some sort, we’re not going to give too much away,

Chris Hudson: 1:01:24
it’s going to be in a team empowerment program we’re, we’re going to be parachuting in to help some, some leaders really. Put some of the high profile projects back on track. And if there’s anything bumpy and there’s high expectations and, anyone’s worried about any of the, any of the, outcomes of their high profile projects, then yeah, we’re more than happy to have a chat. So there’ll be more details on that to come, but I thought I’d mention it because we were talking about so many of the themes that we’re going to be pouring into this product and service. So. Yeah, stay tuned for that. And it just leaves me to say a huge thank you, Lina, for coming onto the show and for sharing your wisdom and, and your stories and, I think just incredible perspective on, on life and work and how to navigate some of these. Every day, but very tricky situations. I really appreciate that.

Lina Patel: 1:02:10
Oh, thank you, Chris. I’m, I’m so appreciative for the work that you do through this podcast. It’s, it’s actually just such a gift hearing from others and the direction that they are going in and the things, I’m so grateful. It’s, it’s lovely to be in, in the company of all your previous and I imagine wonderful future guests as well jamming on these things. So yeah, thanks so much for having me along.

Chris Hudson: 1:02:34
Absolute pleasure. Thanks so much, Lina. Thank you.

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