Driving profit through purpose: Transforming your business into a force for good
“What matters to me is helping businesses realise their full potential to be a force for good in the world. Because I truly believe that this is the untapped potential of business.”
Carolyn Butler-Madden
In this episode you’ll hear about
- Carolyn’s career journey: Carolyn delves into the roots of her beliefs and lets us into the key experiences that inspired her to champion purpose driven approaches in business.
- The missing role of love in business: An opportunity for untapped potential, to connect things you love and enjoy into your world of work.
- Transitioning from marketing to purpose-driven strategy: Recognising the power that businesses and brands have to solve society’s biggest challenges and in turn attract people that want to support them.
- How to start these bigger conversations: Turning passion and strategy into action by taking the first step.Connecting to the why: Identifying your unique identity, looking beyond short-term marketing strategies into building a long-term authentic purpose strategy.
Key links
Carolyn’s book, For Love and Money
Bea Boccalandro on Job Purposing
About our guest
Carolyn believes in a world where business is a force for good and brands drive profit through purpose. Her conviction for meaningful business purpose has led her to becoming an activist for Social Purpose and a leading authority on Purpose.
An inspiring speaker, award-winning author, podcast host, and a contributor to media publications including Forbes Australia, CEO Magazine, CEO World Magazine, CMO, Marketing, B&T, Smart Company, Women’s Agenda, Retail World and Inside FMCG; Carolyn’s mission is to make meaningful purpose vital in business. Her guiding mantra – “Profit with Purpose”.
Her second book “For Love & Money” was awarded best Social Responsibility book in the 2022 Australian Business Book of the Year Awards. Her first book, Amazon bestseller, Path-To-Purpose, was Australia’s first on Cause Marketing.
Carolyn walks the talk. Through her B Corp Certified Consultancy, “The Cause Effect”, she helps businesses of all types and sizes navigate their path to purpose and unlock the full potential of their people, organisation and brand.
30 years’ international experience creating successful and internationally awarded marketing campaigns for some of the world’s best brands, provides the backdrop to her Purpose career. She owned and ran two agencies in Sydney before quitting the agency world to pursue her passion for purpose-led business.
Today, through her keynotes to business leaders; her books, articles, content, workshops and programs, she helps leaders of organisations large and small to navigate the full opportunity that building a purpose-led brand and business offers them.
About our host
Our host, Chris Hudson, is a Teacher, Experience Designer and Founder of business transformation coaching and consultancy Company Road.
Company Road was founded by Chris Hudson, who saw over-niching and specialisation within corporates as a significant barrier to change.
Chris considers himself incredibly fortunate to have worked with some of the world’s most ambitious and successful companies, including Google, Mercedes-Benz, Accenture (Fjord) and Dulux, to name a small few. He continues to teach with University of Melbourne in Innovation, and Academy Xi in CX, Product Management, Design Thinking and Service Design and mentors many business leaders internationally.
Transcript
Chris Hudson: 0:06
Hello again and welcome to the company road podcast. After reflecting on my journey with this podcast so far, it became pretty clear that not only have we had some really powerful and wonderful and hugely talented guests but the beginnings of patterns were starting to emerge in terms of what makes certain intrapreneurs so successful. So some of the following personality traits are coming out is what I’ve noticed so far so all of the people that we’re talking to that are doing well are excellent storytellers, they’re resilient, they demonstrate grit, they’re self aware, curious, they’re always looking for ways to master their craft. They can laugh at themselves. They have some degree of humility, they have clear purpose and they don’t just put up with work, but they actually really enjoy it and they love what they do, you know, deep down and, and I mean, really love it. So it’s none of this, you know, it’s just going to work. I’m turning up, I’m really busy, it actually it kind of strikes them at their core. So that’s one perspective. Another one was that I was thinking about, cutting back to about a decade ago, I was sitting in a WeWork in London and we we had our innovation consultancy running at the time and much of their branding and WeWork at the time is, you know, it was all very exciting, even though, what was to come was, still relatively unknown. But the swag was kind of built around this concept of love and, people were going around wearing t shirts or drinking from mugs emblazoned with this kind of do what you love slogan. And back then that spirit was really at the heart of start-up culture and it was capturing a lot of the essence of what startups were doing so well and that which so many larger businesses are obviously looking to bottle and emulate in their own cultures today, still, and it’s love and passion that’s really the secret sauce for organisational success. If you can do that in one way or another. So for that reason, I could think of no better guest than to bring onto the show than the wonderful Carolyn Butler Madden. So Carolyn, welcome to the show.
Carolyn Butler-Madden: 1:54
Thanks,
Chris. It’s really good to be here.
Chris Hudson: 1:56
Yeah, thank you. So Carolyn, you’re a consultant, you’re a speaker, you’re award winning author of the book For Love and Money, and the host of the For Love and Money podcast, which is excellent by the way, and I’d thoroughly recommend that to any of the listeners of the show as well let’s start with your belief I mean, this belief that business is a force for good, and that brands can drive profit through purpose and the concept of love in some sort of way, but where did this all begin for you in your journey and in your career?
Carolyn Butler-Madden: 2:24
I think it started with back in 2008, I had a planner and she came to me with some research we were doing a pitch for a brand and she showed me what was going on around the world, particularly in the U S in the area, actually, then it was cause marketing and I saw something that spoke to me, then it was about 20 years in marketing running my own agency, working for big brands and I always loved what I did you know, you talk about love and I loved what I did, but, you know, I was just selling stuff, chocolate, soft drinks, electronics, all of that sort of stuff and it just felt like, you know, I loved the skills I got to use but it felt like there was some, it just, I wasn’t contributing much of value to the world and that was life, that was how it was, but when I saw what she showed me, I was just like, Oh, wow. And I went to a conference over in America, which is now called the Engage for Good conference, which is amazing. And what I saw there, this was 2011 by this time, that’s when I saw what the power of brands and business could do in creating impact in the world. Plus the value it then created back for the brand. And, working in marketing, I could see the challenges that clients were having with their brands, you know, trying to connect with people, trying to get people to choose their brand over another one and build loyalty with their people. And I could see through these stories that were being shared at the conference, like this delivered the solutions on steroids when it was done well. And I’m not talking about, you know, little cause mark tactical cause marketing campaigns. I’m talking about strategic partnerships that went on for years. And I think the one that stood out for me back then, and it was a long time ago, was Pampers, partnership with UNICEF and it was, an on pack promotion and it was a buy one, give one so you bought a pack and it was a vaccine, for maternal and neonatal tetanus, which had huge you know, the number of people dying from it in the developing world was huge. And this campaign, which started off as a simple
Christmas promotion, turned into this huge strategic thing that ended up attracting high quality employees to the organisation. And they ended up having this huge goal to eradicate MNT, maternal and neonatal tetanus, from the world. And the campaign went on for, I don’t know, it might have been 20 years or something like that. And it can’t be eradicated, but they’ve eradicated it from multiple countries as a result of a promotion, a campaign. Now that was very much, you know, back then, over 10 years ago, and looking at it through a cause marketing lens. But since then, my path to purpose has unfolded from marketing to the strategy of purpose. But it was recognising the power that business and brands have to solve society’s biggest challenges and in doing so, attract people that love what they’re doing and want to support them. Employees as well as customers and investors.
Chris Hudson: 6:06
It’s very interesting. I mean if you think about the power that you say the brands have, and I guess the point at which they would realise that that power is there to the extent that they could, you know, effectively flip it into something that can create good in, in one way or another. I’m wondering like what your perspective on that is because having started out advertising marketing myself, that it’s a lot of pressure on those roles and those teams, obviously to, to almost. Use the work to drive the results, but the metrics are not usually orientated around good purpose and the things that you described. So I’m wondering at what point that, that flip into something a bit more of a broader impact. When does that happen in a brand’s journey and where have you seen that working well?
Carolyn Butler-Madden: 6:50
I think this is something that’s, it’s taking time, with my background, 30 years in marketing, I thought my core target audience would be marketers. And some of the clients I’ve worked with are marketers, but they’re very progressive. You know, they’re marketers, who are looking beyond marketing. They can see the big, big opportunity. So I think, look, I think it’s difficult here in Australia, obviously, the environment is not conducive to this kind of work at the moment. A lot of marketers are looking at short term metrics and they’re under pressure to deliver those. And so this isn’t on the radar as a priority for many of them, but you know what, It needs to be because you can’t always look short term. At some point you’ve got to look at building a long term strategy that is going to sustain you into the medium and long term. And this is what building an authentic purpose strategy does. I think the other inhibitor to this,
Chris, is fear. You see and hear examples of purpose washing and green washing. And I think marketers are fearful of it and there’s a lot of confusion as well. I think, you know, it’s kind of like, okay, what’s our role as marketers?
Chris Hudson: 8:13
Yeah.
Carolyn Butler-Madden: 8:14
Our organisation has an ESG strategy. We need to market that. And immediately, their perspective, the way they’re framing that opportunity or challenge is this is our ESG strategy. We’ve got to tell people about it. And instantly they’re approaching it that they’re limiting the way they approach it because I don’t believe that’s the opportunity for marketing. I think marketing offers a massive opportunity for businesses. to invite like minded people, if they’ve done the work on themselves, to invite like minded people who care about the change that they are committed to creating in the world to invite them to join them. And so it’s more an invitation to be part of something. And to also act and contribute to it as it is about communicating what you’ve done. And you have to, you can’t go out and do this invitation without doing substantial work beforehand so you do have to do that. So I think going back to your question, I think marketing has a huge role to play. I don’t think, It has yet understood, that role and how well, how beautifully placed marketers are to fill that role as storytellers, as people, who understand, how to invite engagement with people. And I think when that happens, it’s just going to be a game changer.
Chris Hudson: 9:49
I mean, this has been the move in marketing obviously in the last 20 years through digital, really. I mean, it feels like the opportunity for engagement and connection, you know, beyond communication in itself and a one way broadcast message out is there and it’s there for the taking and obviously some are still operating it probably more from a communications point of view and others are using it as an opportunity to really build out, more powerful and, I guess more self evolving power to the people kind of brands where the people out in the world, you know, feel like they have some ownership of it but at the heart of it, it’s still a commercial outcome that most are trying to drive. So yeah, I guess I was just curious around how that balance is struck well and also around, the personality types maybe of the people that you’ve seen have been able to fly that flag and to do it in a way that is authentic and that can work within the organisations and in the outside world, because it just feels like at the heart of it, it’s still needing to do a job from a marketing point of view. And I think that, yeah, I work a lot in products and innovation and, you know, you see the same, that everyone is feeling like they have to stick to their remit to some extent, but obviously as soon as you broaden it out, then it becomes everybody’s problem. So you know, is it, is it the individual or do you think it’s the environment in which the organisation operates? From a chemistry point of view, how does some of the better conversations get started within an organisation in your experience?
Carolyn Butler-Madden: 11:21
So as you’re talking, I’m thinking about one particular client I have and I won’t name them but So I started working with her, she was head of marketing of a pharmacy business and so reasonably big business okay and you know she started off and yeah it comes down to the individual. I think you’ve got to want to do this kind of work I just want to say. That through one thing I’ve learned through my speaking and the way people respond to the stories I share, I think most people, when they actually see the opportunity, want it, but a lot just haven’t seen or understood the opportunity. And she had been on a number of programs leadership programs, which had sort of opened her eyes a little bit to the opportunity. And we started doing the, one of my programs. So it’s a program that actually looks at really uncovering, what is the higher purpose of the organisation, articulating it clearly, putting it at the centre of the brand and then building out a strategy. across the business, through people and culture, through marketing, customer experience, partnerships, impact and performance, to provide the foundations it basically allows organisations to actually Number one, understand the role of purpose in an organisation. It’s not just a purpose statement. It’s about action and Lay down the foundations to the point where they actually understand it and have a place to go forward from. And when we started the work, the leadership team were on board. She was driving it, but I don’t think they really understood where this would take them. She had an inkling. But even, she probably didn’t understand the depth to which it would go. And certainly the leadership team, you know, they were on board, but again, they didn’t. And the CEO at the time, he, stepped down and he retired and another CEO came in. But I had written about this organisation in my book for love and money, using them as an example to show how the brand purpose blueprint plays out. And I’d sent him the manuscript, one of the people I sent it to, and I asked if he’d be open to doing a testimonial. And he said, yeah, sure. And anyway, he read the book and he came back and he said to me, I need time to think about this. I, I’m not ready. And I said, what’s, what’s wrong? And he said, I just don’t understand how I didn’t see this opportunity. And I’m struggling with, I’m struggling with that. And I just need to sit with this for a bit. And he ended up giving an amazing testimonial, but it was clear that, you know, it was almost, he was, There was regret, right? And don’t misunderstand me. I’ve heard stories about his leadership and he was amazing. But you only can do what you know at the time and you know, what is available to you at the time. And today we have this incredible opportunity to use our brands and our businesses to create real value where there are underserved human needs. And that was the opportunity. So back to your question, yes, it comes down to an individual. There is always in my experience, a champion, someone who sees the opportunity, gets excited by it and is prepared to champion it. And you need that because this is not superficial work. You know, it will change your business and, It’s going to be uncomfortable for some people. It’s going to be massively exciting and open up new opportunities. And, the innovation that purpose can create, I know you would understand that
Chris is massive, and that’s what propels you into, creating differentiation and opportunity and attracting engaged and invested employees. So yes, it comes down to that individual who actually starts it and then, drives it through and brings along other people in the organisation.
Chris Hudson: 16:04
Yeah. I mean, I love that. I think it’s very personal. It feels to the people and you and I, I’m sure I’ve both encountered these leaders that have these amazing ideas and they’re basically rallying, they’re campaigning their message and they’re working, they’re pitching it in every conversation in one way, because it all ladders up to the thing getting made and the dream being realised in one way or another. So, it is that behaviour that you see probably more obviously in entrepreneurs, where you see a keynote speech and, it’s Jobs or it’s Branson or it’s Bezos or whoever it is, they’re, they kind of fly in the flag but at a. At a slightly different level within organisations, obviously it’s similar sort of behaviours. I love the the point that you made around regret, because I think that, within the business context, regret feels like a very, it’s a very human feeling and not one that often comes up as much within business. And I know that you talk about love in your book as well, which is also another big topic from that point of view, but regret is If you try to put your finger on it there’s a lot of talk in the business world that I see around things that were tried, but maybe didn’t work. And they’re kind of accepted as failures in one way or another, but because they were tried, it’s like, okay, let’s talk about it and we’ll move on and that’s it. Regret as a notion sort of sits with you for longer, and it also propels you as a person forward to drive a better outcome, usually in one way or another. And because you said it, it just made me think, actually, If that was there and you had a point to prove it would just spur you on If you’re one of these individuals, you’d be able to just take that as a driving force almost it can be as powerful as inspiration and as powerful as passion for what you do because it’s a reason to prove to somebody that something could work And just as you were talking it kind of made me think actually that could be driving a lot of people forward in finding their purpose and in realising it in one way or another as well.
Carolyn Butler-Madden: 17:55
I think that’s a great point,
Chris. And I think, if you can get to them before it’s too late, before that regret is just regret and you can do nothing about it. And where I think that path is to meet them before it’s too late is by asking people to think about legacy, you know, in the role that they have today, Let’s say they’re a leader in an organisation, but it doesn’t have to be a leader. But, if you’re a leader, there’s more opportunity to create change and influence. So, the role you have today with the team you have today, this is your moment. This is your time, especially as a leader, this generation of leaders. And this is something I ask people is five years from now. What are people going to talk about? What stories are they going to tell about your time as a group of leaders together? Are they, you know, they might not mention you by name, but are they going to talk about, that leadership group? They made this possible. Or is it just going to be another moment in time? That’s wasted, where you just serve your time, keep shit going in the same direction, don’t do anything to rock it too much. And I think that question about legacy is vitally important to leaders, but it’s a question that everybody’s asking. You don’t have to be a leader. I listened to my daughter and her. friends talking, and perhaps because, you know, they’re looking at a future which is so uncertain, and where they need, they know they need to make change, and they don’t want to waste time. Doing crap. I mean, the system is set up in, in some ways, and I don’t mean that disrespectfully, but selling more stuff, you know, consumerism, that, that kind of thing, even those that are doing it are doing it and are feeling really bad about it. That’s what I’m hearing back from them and just talking to people. So, you know, this moment in time is such an opportunity because there are needs. vital needs and business has always been there to serve needs. Now, what needs are you going to serve? Are they going to be same old needs, manufactured needs, or are they going to be genuine needs that are currently being underserved? And, I have the pleasure of interviewing people on my podcast who are doing this and, they’re, innovating and they’re creating these businesses, that are serving underserved human needs and as a result are being profitable. And it’s so exciting and, helping them share their stories and amplify their stories it just gives me such pleasure. But hearing back from listeners, who get in touch with me and just say, I love this story. It’s, this is what people want. They want to feel inspired and they want to do something with it. And business has the opportunity to do that. So legacy. Yeah. Legacy. Think about your legacy before it’s too late. And you just reflect with regret on what could have been.
Chris Hudson: 21:40
Yeah, that’s powerful. I mean, the I love the point you made in there around consumerism and just the speed of change because it is uncertain. And you think about how much hive of activity is happening around the conversation and there’s AI going on and, you know, it’s almost like everyone’s rushing around trying to figure out what the thing is to do next. And, I just see that, particularly the startup world and obviously innovation and there’s big established brands trying to move more quickly and get more manoeuvrable and the rate of change is obviously increasing, you know, it’s like you have to match the evolution of technology with the speed at which, business needs to adapt and that rate needs to be baked into business now. And if it stands still, then it stagnates. And ultimately people would say it would die, just to be dramatic cause everything dies, when people want to make a big statement about these things. But, yeah, I’m just wondering about that because you almost need a, you need a North star, you need a direction to take this. And I think if you anchor it in a consumer need, as you were describing. That can be the right thing, but I feel like a lot of people are creating, systems and processes and conversations there’s a lot of noise around, things that have to change and implementations that need to be made. Without any real cause it feels like we’re gonna try out ai and, you need to learn it because everyone is learning it But will you be remembered or will I be remembered for the ai thing that you introduced to the organisation? You know five years on nobody’s going to know that you were there and that you did it But if you plant a seed of something bigger and you’re able to use it in a meaningful way, and it was the start of the beginning of something that grew into a bigger system of change the systemic thing then, branched out into the world and it was able to achieve this. And that can be obviously much bigger. So yeah, it just feels like the opportunity is there, but the direction is missing.
Carolyn Butler-Madden: 23:29
I’ve recently, we’ve got South by Southwest coming up in October and they have public submission. So, you know, they open it up to anybody to put in a proposal and then the public vote. So it’s, I think voting’s just closed, but I put in a submission for a panel discussion and I invited three of the guests who I’ve had on the podcast and the theme is purpose driven AI powered innovation. And the three guests that would be on the panel I’d love to share them if that’s okay.
Chris Hudson: 24:06
Yeah, of course. Yeah. Go for it.
Carolyn Butler-Madden: 24:09
Danielle Owen Whitford is the founder of Pioneera. And Pioneera it’s an AI bot, which integrates with Slack and Teams. And it’s there to Tackle toxic productivity and help power healthy, positive productivity and help identify, when people are really struggling in the workplace. And it came from her experience of just completely burning out, not seeing the signs, and just tapping out and losing it. And she couldn’t believe that she didn’t see the signs. Nobody else saw the signs. And it made her wonder, how many other people were struggling with this. so Pioneera and a bot called Indie is what she has created to help tackle this problem. The other guest Melanie Greblo from Scriibed. So Scriibed is a digital marketing platform powered by AI, but the beautiful thing about Scriibed is that the workforce that actually, combined with the AI. technology to deliver the solution is a skilled workforce who their non profit foundation, who Melanie also started, train up, and they’re victims of domestic violence. So she looked at how she could actually help solve The problem of, financial stress by victims of domestic violence and Scriibed is the solution to that. And then the third guest is Dr. Kyle Turner, who is founder and CEO of Pearlii and Pearlii is an AI tool that basically, it’s to create free oral hygiene. around the world. And it came from his problem. He came from remote Australia and he didn’t have access to good dental health care. And he had terrible, terrible teeth. And he said affected everything. He said, you know, my confidence was shattered. I was terrible. I didn’t go to interviews. And he was actually an epidemiologist, but it went back to the problem he suffered as a kid. And, the decision to do something about it. And this app, you take photos of your mouth. And upload it and, AI actually identifies certain things and then it connects you to dentists and they’ve got this plan to have a bus that roams around. Anyway, these are brilliant business solutions, aren’t they? And, when people hear about them, I have not come across someone who hasn’t said, Oh my God, that is so cool. I to be part of something like that. And it goes to that question of if you’re starting a business today and you’re not using that business, not as a little side thing, which you do by the way, after I earn money, you know, I’ll give back. But if you’re not using that business to figure out how you can solve real world problems, then really, what are you doing?
Chris Hudson: 27:38
Yeah. I mean, that’s it. That’s it. But how much work is going on in the world that, that isn’t solving for those problems? You know, if you, you look that burden that we’re carrying,
Carolyn Butler-Madden: 27:50
But
Chris, comes back to that question you asked is, how does it start? So another client of mine, who I started working with a few years ago Felix mobile, so they’re part of TPG telecom, and it’s a business unit within TPG telecom. And they were starting as a digital only business. It was the CEO’s pet project. And this was when Vodafone and TPG were merging. And they brought me in and we worked on the strategy and there was a group of them. Okay. And their brief was a digital only business. Purpose was not part of the brief. And yet those people on the development team they started doing the work and they started doing research. But they actually said to me, we figured if we’re starting a business in the 21st century, it has to have a higher purpose. It can’t just be there to, make money. Of course it’s got to make money. That’s a given, but it’s got to, it’s got to deliver more value than that. And they had that notion, plus when they started doing consumer research, that also came back. From the consumer research and because of that, that’s where they took the brand and their brand Felix mobile their purpose is about inspiring a better mobile industry and they use their business to promote sustainability. So every customer for every month that you stay with Felix, they plant a tree. They’re powered by renewable energy. They’ve done all these different things, you know, nobody’s perfect, but they’re doing whatever they can to actually create a business with sustainability at its core. And I had the head of Felix mobile on the podcast last year. And she was telling me about like, they’ve done brilliantly. They’ve won multiple awards. They, we set, I encouraged them to set a huge goal that scared them. And they set a goal of a million trees in the first couple of years or whatever it was, I can’t remember. And at the time they were saying, Oh my God, how are we going to achieve this?
Chris Hudson: 30:11
Yeah.
Carolyn Butler-Madden: 30:11
They achieved it. I think it was maybe a couple of months after the target date and they’ve set another huge goal, which they are on track to achieve well ahead of the target date. And the team are so emotionally invested in this business and its success because of what it stands for and because of what it’s doing. And when I interviewed Kelly about this, she said, we did customer research and she said, we asked people why they switched. to FelixMobile. And the brand, it’s not all about purpose. It is also about simplicity and value. And she said, and they came back and she said, I was devastated because they said they switched for the value. And she said, I wanted it to be for the trees, they switched for the value. So you can see, you know, that go, it goes to the identity, her identity. And then she said, but further in the research, we discovered that they might’ve switched for the value, but they stay for the trees.
Chris Hudson: 31:23
Mm
Carolyn Butler-Madden: 31:24
And so, that underscores, I think a really important point. And that is, purpose is not the magic bullet. to solve all the problems of a brand in the world. You’ve still got to show up, with all the elements of a brand, value, quality, targeting, all of that. But purpose is the cream on top that actually takes you to that next level. And, in their case, loyalty, retention, referrals. That’s what they’re getting from that.
Chris Hudson: 32:01
Yeah, and that ties neatly into what you were saying at the start, which is around playing the longer game really, where you get this compounding effect, even if the brand has to flip or the business has to flip into something that will activate the conversation around value, then it can extend and elevate as you were saying to, to something that’s much bigger than that. In the end, if you’ve set it up in the right way, I’m thinking about I’m just drawing together some of the themes a little bit, because we’ve got almost this sense of. Like a personal passion and purpose that comes from within us That we bring into our world of work and that can be activated and that can be turned into action in one way or another So if that was a starting point and that then joins to I guess a team of people that powers it In one way or another so across your teams You’re getting the right people and you’ve got your leadership buying in and all this sort of thing So that can be the next step and then you’re obviously thinking, okay, well, how do I start it? And where do I start it? And like you were saying, you’ve got almost the starting point for it. So at the seed, you need to make sure that when it goes out into the world, it’s going to be something that can, be probably tested against other options, like you were saying. So research is obviously really helpful for that. But you can say, I’ve got three propositions or five, and I’m going to make sure That it kind of stands out in one way or another, and we get the reason to kind of bake it in to, to what we’re doing. So that affirmation is always, always really good to play back, obviously, to the leadership. And then once you’re up and running, it’s like, how do you make more of it? And how does it grow? And where does it grow to? And I think that’s where it gets, starts to get exciting. But if you follow that string of events, actually, it often falls up at the first hurdle really, you know that kind of from the individual out to the teams and getting people on board and then you know to the point where it’s tangible is actually like way out But you’re actually having to think about how do I make it real to begin with? So what are some of the I guess catalysts that you think work in this context, that really help move things from the needs that you’ve spotted out there in the world, your own personal values, and that then, help just turn strategy and thoughts and passion into action in some way or another.
Carolyn Butler-Madden: 34:07
It’s really interesting as you’re talking about that. I’m visualizing a model that we’ve created. We’ve got our path to purpose program, which gives that strategy. It puts purpose at the centre and it gives a strategy. But what we’ve realised is the next stage the challenge we’re hearing people talk about is we have a purpose statement, but our people aren’t connected to it.
Chris Hudson: 34:30
Hmm.
Carolyn Butler-Madden: 34:30
I think that’s part of what you’re talking about
Chris Hudson: 34:32
Yeah. Yeah.
Carolyn Butler-Madden: 34:33
And this is something I’ve been working on for the last couple of months in collaboration with other people. And if you imagine a Venn diagram, a three circle Venn diagram, the three parts of those, the three circles, let’s say it starts with identity. Okay. Who are you? That is the unique, your unique organisational identity. Everyone says start with why. Simon Sinek, brilliant. Yeah, great back then. I, you’ve got to start with who? You can’t really connect to the why until you know who. you are. And this is something in all the work I have done with every single client, is probably the biggest surprise that comes out. And it’s the first thing we do, it’s who are you? What is the core of who you are? Think about the best of your people. Think about your best customers. Think about your best leaders. Think about just, it doesn’t just have to be internal, but it’s like, who are they? And, and who do you want to be? You know, taking that seed, who do you want to be? And. Every single time, there is this unique identity that exists. Even buried within an organisation, you don’t manufacture it, it’s there, but then you uncover it and you get clarity on it. And that is the seed that makes people go, Oh my God, that is who we are. And then connects to the why and gives that personal connection. to the why. And it also inspires people to want to be more, and to want to show up in bigger ways in their role to help to create this identity of the organisation. And so that, that’s the identity piece. The second piece is purpose. And, I don’t need to talk about that. Everybody now knows, what purpose organisational purpose is but I think what’s lacking is particularly in leadership teams is understanding what it means to the organisation and what its role should be in the organisation. And that’s a leadership challenge that has to be resolved. Otherwise you won’t get anywhere. And the third piece is stories. Okay, and I’m not talking about marketing stories. I’m talking about everyday stories that people share about identity. and purpose, right? And people are telling stories about your business all the time, especially your own people. They’re telling stories over coffees with their colleagues. They’re telling stories at the water cooler. They’re telling stories at team meetings when they interview people. The question is, what stories are they sharing? Are they stories you want them to be sharing? Because stories evidence of your identity and of purpose in action. Not just a statement, but purpose in action. So when you start threading those three things together and you look at the intersecting areas of the Venn diagram, what you have between identity and purpose is a shared narrative. What you have, identity, purpose, and story is transformative leadership, which inspires action. starts with the leadership team, because if the leadership team aren’t acting, no one’s going to act. And then you’ve got powerful stories which are evidence of purpose and identity and action. So I don’t know if that answers your question exactly, but that’s the deeper work that needs to be done to connect people to that purpose, and stories, I guess, are the outcome of the single most important thing that needs to happen, which is action. So the question I would ask listeners is, if your organisation has a purpose, what is its role in the organisation? Because ultimately, truly, if it’s the purpose of your organisation, it should be powering your strategy. It shouldn’t just be part of ESG or whatever it is. It should be powering your full strategy. And then, what are the stories that are being told? But this thing about stories is the key also to connecting people to the purpose. in the first place because it’s about, getting people to reflect on, how is purpose inspiring you today in your organisation. Think about a time when you felt proud. To be part of this organisation, tell us that story, and it’s getting people to going back to making it personal. It’s getting people to reflect, to think about their own experiences, to hear other people’s experiences. And that is what builds confidence and confidence builds trust. And you need trust in order to, drive purpose through the organisation,
Chris Hudson: 40:09
Yeah, I love that framework. I think it really brings a lot of things together. Particularly from the point of view of I want to say distorted business. I feel like often it feels like we’re walking into the hall of mirrors, right? There’s a lot of, there’s a lot of things that we see in here and you don’t understand why things are the way they are. You know, people join businesses at different times, different levels of maturity from different walks of life. They’re bringing different perspectives different eyes and ears essentially. And it just feels like that distortion of, What the business stands for and the truth, if you boil it right down the DNA of the business and the brand and what it’s all doing, why everyone’s there, it just feels like it just gets into this sort of fuzzy reality of what’s going on. Um, you’re in a meeting. You don’t know why You’re discussing stuff. You don’t know why you don’t know how it ladders up to broader strategy and you know see this all the time, you know I’m doing some work with one of the big banks here in Australia and it just feels like you’re in your bit but actually there’s so much else that it needs to connect to but you can’t connect to everything else because This constellation is out there and it just feels like too big for anyone to take on. So, if you’re thinking about the day to day what are some of the things that can help I guess set one’s mind at ease that you’re contributing to the business world, actually meaningfully that you’re not getting lost in this kind of noise. And that you’re actually on the right path.
Carolyn Butler-Madden: 41:32
Start with what you can do. So, I’ll share a little story of a few years ago, an ex client of mine from my agency days. I caught up for a coffee with him and he said, I’ve got a new young marketing executive who’s joined the team. he said, I’d like you to meet her because she would absolutely love what you’re doing. And I think I’d written my first book at the time. Anyway, he set up a coffee and we met and she’d read the book and she said, you know, I’m just a junior. What can I do? And I said, well, what can you do? What do you see? And you know, the organisation didn’t have a purpose at the time or anything. And she said, oh, I see. It was a wholesale bakery company. And she said, there is so much food waste that happens. And I said, well, start with that. What could you do? with that food waste. And she said, I don’t know, maybe I could call food bank, but I don’t know, is it even worth their while? And I said, Louisa, start small, you know, call them, ask them and you don’t know until you actually speak to them, which she did And I said, speak to people around you. And I said, I guarantee there will be others who will want to join you. in whatever you do. Anyway, it became this snowball, right? Foodbank were like, yes, please. It continues today, but Foodbank is now their partner. They bake food for Foodbank. It’s not just about food waste. They actually contribute food to Foodbank. They’re all of their employees and, you know, some of their employees are at the really. low end of paid jobs and are very, very vulnerable themselves, but their employees they pay their employees to volunteer. I think it’s two days a year with food bank. so her boss, who was my ex client, obviously, he nurtured this and he was on the leadership team, but it inspired them to then do the work. So they came to me and we worked and we built out, uncovered, articulated, and built out their purpose strategy. And like this one small action snowballed to become this huge thing where they are contributing tons of food to food bank. They are now using their, you know, COVID has obviously had an impact on their business like everybody else. But they’re using their influence with the cafes who are their clients to actually try and create more impact through those cafes, not just in food waste, but in, in working more sustainably. And that’s one junior and that is the impact she had on the business. So, when people say to me, what can I do? Nothing. I call bullshit on that. You, every single person can do something. Don’t think about the company. Think about what you can do. Think about how maybe you can find others, not just in your team, but through your own actions. People will see, people will take note, and I guarantee people will go, what are you doing? How can I help? That’s how you build a movement. Right. So that would be my advice is don’t think about what you can’t do because the business is too big and unwieldy and you don’t have influence. Think about where you can channel the influence you do have. No matter how small it is.
Chris Hudson: 45:26
Mm. Mm. Yeah, I wanted to ask about that because when you have that idea or that spark. And you see something as you, I think that’s a really interesting perspective on, you don’t have to do something just yet, but if you see something, that could be the start of, the beginnings of the movement and actually, what works best in terms of allies and getting people on board and who can you get around you quick and fast, to make that movement escalate and just grow as quickly as you can, do you think? What works well. Seniors, juniors, everyone.
Carolyn Butler-Madden: 45:59
I think what works well is, first of all, you taking a step. You know, not just talking about doing something, but actually doing something. In her case, it was phoning up Food Bank and organising a pick up. one step, right? And then that was noted. So I don’t know the ins and outs of it, but then somebody hears about that. Of course, someone hears about that. It’s the sort of stories then, you know, did you hear about what Louisa did with the food bank? And So one step, but talk to people, within your organisation, who you know, who you like, who you already have a relationship with and invite them, you know, what else could we do? How do we make this work better? How do we talk to. a manager or, a leader or whatever it is. So, yeah, my advice always on all of this is action. Action. That’s why my title is Chief Purpose Activist, right? It’s with, well, without action. Nothing happens. I’m, and I’m so sick and tired of just hearing talk.
Chris Hudson: 47:17
Yeah.
Carolyn Butler-Madden: 47:18
Do something with it. And everybody can do something. Everybody. Um, and if you don’t get traction, well, maybe you’re not in the right place.
Chris Hudson: 47:30
Yeah.
Carolyn Butler-Madden: 47:30
maybe it’s the wrong kind of action. But you won’t know, unless you try.
Chris Hudson: 47:36
Yeah, yeah. No, that’s good. That’s good. Because there’s so many I suppose, you can caught up in your thoughts a lot. Uh, in your book, you’re talking about Ikigai, which is also really important for kind of understanding where your focus should be and, what your passion is and where to direct your attention really. But once you’ve got the compass, like actually activating it is the key. It’s the important thing because otherwise it’s nothing, it’s just in your head, right? It doesn’t reach the world. And that’s where I think so many, so much genius is lost in the world of work because either we’re on a whiteboard somewhere or it’s in somebody’s head, nothing ends up happening. And then, six months later, nobody remembers it happened. So moves that fast.
Carolyn Butler-Madden: 48:14
It’s also interesting because I think there’s such pressure for people to know their personal purpose, right? It’s almost I, people say to me, Oh, I don’t know my purpose. How do I find my purpose? And it just feels like stress, it’s this thing that people feel like they have to have. And I feel like, you know, let it go. Let that stress go. There’s something and this is something that, again, I’m working in collaboration with someone else on where you start looking at the purpose of your job, your role, whether role as a leader or your role as a manager or whatever it is, but purpose of your role. is something that perhaps, will take the pressure off your personal purpose. And you’re going to have to start, you know, thinking about your personal self in order to get to that. There is a beautiful talk, I think it’s a TED talk on job purposing. And I think the person is. Bea Boccalandro I’ll find it for you if you want to put it in the show notes, but it’s all about job purposing. And she shares a story of how there’s a guy who’s a parking attendant in a car park. He’s just got to check all the cars and it’s a really mundane. job, but he loves his job. He jumps out of his bed in the morning to do his job because he’s layered another level on his job that wasn’t asked of him, but he created. it to make it meaningful to him. And that layer is checking the tires of the cars that are parked there to make sure they’re safe. And then telling people if they’re not safe. That’s his job purpose, right? Keeping people safe, and that’s what he’s done himself, so that’s his little action that he’s taken. So that’s just another level that people can think about, if you don’t know your personal purpose, and you’re freaking out about it, let it go. Start thinking about your job purpose. Eventually it’ll all come together, but think about, you know, what your job can mean in terms of delivering real value. To people and or society.
Chris Hudson: 50:36
Hmm. I love that. That kind of icing on top of the cake, where, the job description is the job description, but you can make it your own in some way. And I think people do, they, obviously get hired on the basis that they will bring something in over and above a job description, which is usually a set of bullet points and many people could do that, but they’re hiring you, as a person, so what are you bringing in personally and then how do you invest personally in that to make it something more? I think that’s where the interesting thing lies.
Carolyn Butler-Madden: 51:05
It goes to identity, doesn’t it?
Chris Hudson: 51:07
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I’m interested in this because we’re talking a lot about purpose and. And business obviously, and we talked a bit about regret. You know, some of these more human aspects and your book called For Love and Money, which I’ve got here, I was reading it. Love in the business context maybe ties together some of these things. I’d love to just get your perspective on love and how you brought that together as a set of themes. Because it’s probably the driving force behind Purpose in a way.
Carolyn Butler-Madden: 51:35
Yeah. Thank you for that question. And it’s the first question I ask all my guests in the podcast is, is there a role for Love in business? And it’s fascinating the answers that have come through, but I’ll give my, I’ll give you my answer. Um, yes, there is a role for love in business. It is, I think it’s the missing part of business. I ask people when I speak, I say, who here loves what they do, put your hands up. And usually lots and lots of people put their hand up and they look like they’re genuine, right? It’s not just because their colleagues are
Chris Hudson: 52:11
yeah. the half hand, because nobody’s, yeah, yeah.
Carolyn Butler-Madden: 52:15
And then I say, okay, keep your hand up. If you would still love what you did if you weren’t being paid for it hands come down. Okay. And that is the difference. I talk about, I used to love what I did when I had my agency. I love the skills I got to use, but today I do what I love. And the difference is I’m doing what matters to me. Okay. It’s not just using skills that make me feel good. I’m doing what matters to me. And what matters to me is helping businesses realise their full potential to be a force for good in the world. Because I truly Believe it. I believe it with every part of my body, that this is such an opportunity and I think it’s the untapped potential of business. I don’t think business has yet realised it’s true and full potential. We’ve, continued to shape business as it was shaped in the industrial age, which is something we’ve got to do. You strip emotion out of it. You’ve got to do it because way to earn money so we can enjoy our lives. We don’t live in the industrial age anymore. We don’t have to work in factories obviously some people do but there is, a bigger opportunity. And in order to fulfil that, we’ve got to bring all of us to the table. The rate of under engagement is massive. 77 percent of Australian and New Zealand employers are disengaged or under engaged. And what is that costing businesses? What is that costing your business? What is it costing the wider economy? What is it costing people individually when they’re frustrated and you know, just not feeling they’re delivering the value they know they can give? And that is the untapped opportunity. So love in business and I’m not special, like Yes, I’m 60 now and I pivoted in my career in my early 50s when I should be winding down and today I’ve got more energy. I’ve always been pretty energetic in business, but I’ve just got this other level of energy that makes me power through, all the barriers that do come up and they do, because I am so connected, I believe in this and it comes down to in simple terms, love of people and planet, because I think we have all got so much more to give. So yeah. I love it. I’m not special. I’ve just been lucky enough to kind of find that trigger that’s helped to propel me into this space. And, back then I actually had to walk away, wind down my agency because I realised pursuing what I loved, I could not do with a team of people whose salaries I had to pay. I had to start from scratch without that burden of having to say yes to client work to keep those salaries paid. That was 2016, 2017. That was, I had to do that because purpose was, it just wasn’t a thing at the time here in Australia. Today it is, and today you don’t have to leave your business to do it. The best place to start is in your business today. So I think, that’s the opportunity and yeah, love, love of people and planet and wanting to, love what you do and do what you love, do what you love more than loving what you do. The two go hand in hand, but start with doing what you love and the loving what you do comes from that.
Chris Hudson: 56:25
Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. It’s great to hear your perspective and obviously from your podcast, you’ve asked the question of so many people, and to bring that together as well as your own, perspective on love is very, you know, it’s just amazing to hear from your, from you personally. So thank you for that, Carolyn. I mean, love is a huge concept, right? And then you’ve got all the associations, you kind of flip your head from, you know, business almost into all the things that you think about more, personally, but also, in the things that you do and experience every day. So, finding love and, all of the connotations that go with it, it feels like if you then reframe a lot of what you do. A lot of what you see in your personal life, where you’re thinking about your emotions and how you connect to things that you really love and enjoy and bring that into the world of work. And that can be just a fresh perspective and one that you don’t, you don’t have to wait for an ideal match like you would do in real life. You’re trying to get into a relationship or something. You can actually just start with yourself and project that out. And then things will start to happen that align with you personally, from what I believe and from what you’ve been saying today, so I think thats incredibly empowering and inspiring for the listeners and for us to leave on today. I have loved the opportunity to talk to you so, thanks so much for coming onto the show Carolyn
Carolyn Butler-Madden: 57:41
Oh, thank you for having me Chris. It’s been a great conversation to have with you and I appreciate you asking those questions and inviting me on.
Chris Hudson: 57:51
No problem, and if people would like to say hello or ask a question yourself directly is there a way in which people get in touch?
Carolyn Butler-Madden: 57:57
The easiest way is to find me on LinkedIn. I’m the only Carolyn Butler- Madden there, so I’m an easy find.
Chris Hudson: 58:06
Brilliant. All right, we’ll leave it there. Thanks so much, Carolyn. Have a good day.
Carolyn Butler-Madden: 58:09
Thanks.
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