Designing for Improved Civic Outcomes: The Intersection of Design and Social Responsibility

“Your success is only limited by your own ambition… It’s very much about autonomy, mastery, and purpose beyond the backlog.”
Andrew Broughton

In this episode you’ll hear about

• Balancing business metrics and social impact: The challenge of but need for aligning social impact measures with business metrics to demonstrate the value of socially focussed projects.
• Finding intrinsic value in your work: How to find alignment between your work’s outcomes and impact with your own personal goals and aspirations.
• The role of design in problem-solving: How intrapreneurs can garner influence in the workplace and influence outcomes by focusing on problem-solving and delivering tangible results.
• The art of storytelling: Recognising storytelling as a pivotal business skill for designers to elucidate complex ideas, quantify metrics and convey design’s value… and how to step up your own storytelling capability.
• Handling Curveballs and Side Agendas: How to consider and handle unexpected inputs and side agendas from various sources and repurpose them to the benefit of your project.

Key links

WorkSafe

Strategic Design 

Accenture

Power of 10 model

Ideo Design Thinking

About our guest

Andrew Broughton is a Strategic Designer and Senior Manager of the Innovation Center at WorkSafe Victoria, managing the innovation portfolio, design practice and governance across a team of strategic, service and experience designers.

He has worked as a design consultant with a portfolio of international clients, and created impacts for many people, clients and projects in social innovation and strategic design. His current mission is to leverage design from a civic perspective, empowering and enriching our community in every possible way.

About our host

Our host, Chris Hudson, is a Teacher, Experience Designer and Founder of business transformation coaching and consultancy Company Road.

Company Road was founded by Chris Hudson, who saw over-niching and specialisation within corporates as a significant barrier to change.

Every team approaches transformation in their own way, also bringing in their own partners to help. And while they’re working towards the same organisational goal, it’s this over-fragmentation that stunts rapid progress at a company-wide level.

Having worked as a marketer, transformation leader, teacher and practitioner of design thinking for over 20 years, both here in Australia and internationally, Chris brings a unique, deep and ‘blended’ skillset that will cohere and enable your teams to deliver ambitious and complex change programs.

Transcript
Chris Hudson: Hello and welcome back to the Company Road Podcast. So since episode nine, I’ve actually been reflecting on the impact that design and our work can have on communities and societies and the planet more broadly. So I was really delighted to go deeper into the world of civic design with today’s guest, Andrew Broughton.

Andrew is the Senior Manager of Design and Innovation at WorkSafe Victoria. This is where he leads the organisation’s innovation efforts by overseeing the design practice. He has a diverse portfolio ranging from solving problems, complex problems that is, to optimising processes. Andrew and his team excel at finding effective solutions.

So he began his career as a designer in Melbourne, and he started in brand and advertising and he later transitioned into more tech transformation and then digital performance. And before joining WorkSafe, as a design consultant with a portfolio of international clients, and he’s created impacts for many, many people and many clients and for projects from a social innovation side of things in Footscray to strategic design for banks in Ghana. So he’s really experienced. His current mission is to leverage design from a civic perspective, empowering and enriching our community in every possible way. So let’s jump in and hear what we had to say.

Thank you.

Hello and Andrew, welcome to the show. I wanted to start with yeah huge thank you for coming onto the show, but also a bit of a reflection and one that connects my world with yours currently, and it takes me a few years back, but I’ll always fondly remember my experience with WorkSafe where I was actually working as a consultant with Accenture at the time and as a UX designer on a transformation project, and we were, looking at various design problems that actually if solved would actually help most Victorian businesses, which was a, it was a really cool thing to do.

It was going to help with our OH&S, work safety, obviously business team capability, morale, you know, it was going to do a lot of things for good. And I remember the feeling, just this incredible feeling of responsibility and weight on my shoulders as I was you know moving things around the page and pushing things through research that this is actually making a difference here. So when so many digital design projects primarily for commercial gain or a corporate entity where you’re working for you know somebody who’s just trying to generate revenue, really, in this case, it was actually for the real worth of the work and it was actually judged by that because of its practicality and its usefulness to people.

And it just made me think, that’s kind of how it should be in a lot of cases. I’d love to start with a question around that and just around, what sense of responsibility and I guess accomplishment or feeling of worth do you. feel in the work that you do?

[00:02:32] Andrew Broughton: Yeah thanks Chris, I think that was a nice way to put it. I really think there’s a moment and you sort of in how you just addressed or introduced that then sort of hit the nail on the head where, anyone can apply themselves to anything. But what is the outcome that you’re delivering and what impact is that creating?

I really think there’s a conscious decision that speaking for myself as a designer that I made in my career where I decided that I wanted to have social impact and provide, community good with my efforts, done the banks, done all that stuff, insurance, like been there, done that. But the outcome of that time and investment that you put in is for somebody else’s financial gain, whereas the efforts that the team put in at WorkSafe is all about, ensuring that we have civic insurance product that looks after people when they’re harmed at work, which, brings huge value to the community, here in Victoria.

So, definitely made that as a conscious decision and there’s many complications that go with coming home every day that all of that that you’ve just done, to get through the day, is for the good of the community is satisfying,

[00:03:36] Chris Hudson: Yeah, I mean, we’ll come on to maybe some of the day to day, but just coming back to that point around the big decision. Was it a big lead up to that? And how did it come about? What situation were you in? Tell us the story.

[00:03:46] Andrew Broughton: So I had been doing a lot of consulting and working in agencies and consultancies, moving around where a lot of the service design work is, design research UX work, comms work, whatever design things are going on. I think there was a moment where, I was doing some consulting for Australia Post. There was a co design lab that would, it was set up in Footscray. It was all attached to Australia Post’s strategy around connecting communities and we designed this amazing service with lots of designers involved out of this co-design lab where we were looking at breaking down unconscious bias and building better connected communities and sort of trying to tackle site social isolation and it was just this moment of, yes we’re doing this. There is an end goal that is kind of ROI based. But at the same time, we’re doing it for such positive social impact, with the community. And, you know, I could never get that buzz back and I was, looking around and the, the move to WorkSafe had many other drivers attached to it, geographic change, COVID, lots of other things, There was already sort of a lab set up in WorkSafe when I joined called the Innovation Center and that the team that I went into straight away and the appeal of why I wanted to go was, doing ethnography with people from diverse backgrounds, to look at how we can better, get them to understand their rights and responsibilities. You know, so I was immediately thrown into a team in a civic organisation that was looking at how do we better involve community, we’re following curious co-design kind of practices and ladders of participation and all that kind of stuff and I was immediately sucked into, the very. rich end of design in a place that could have impact. So it all just kind of laddered in that way. and you know, the journey from there which is almost, that was only three years ago has always had this sentiment around for me at least and what I drive and try empower and get people passionate about in, in the team is the fact that you’re doing this for, social impact for the civic good, in the community, you can go to the banks, but here, you know, we’re doing something that is very special and adds great value to everyone around us.

So, it’s a privilege really, I think, to be in the position that the team is now at WorkSafe.

[00:06:06] Chris Hudson: Yeah, fantastic. I mean, that’s really heartwarming just to hear not only the context of that realisation, but also the move that you made and where you got to with it. But the fact that the work is happening out there and it’s worked for good because, I think coming back to the point around responsibility, design has its usual practices and obviously you can take that in, in and through basically to realise lots of different outcomes and the outcomes may be varied.

The outcomes may carry other ethical considerations and, you’ve got to be thinking about as a designer, where are you pushing people? You’re skilled in creating nudges and experiences in the interface or in the interaction that effectively can influence behaviour and do influence behaviour.

So what is your responsibility there? And I think the fact that you can use it for a force of good is incredibly powerful. I’m wondering just thinking about the process actually maybe this is a massive topic around process in itself, but you can think about, when in that set of stages, you’re thinking about the impact that something might have, whether it’s at the start or through actually unpacking the problem, or maybe going into more of the ideation, the solutions where you start to realise the longer lasting effects of this work can actually be, what’s your take on that?

Do you feel like it’s something that you set out to do? With ambition, with intent, do you feel like it just gravitates towards something bigger when you stumble upon a really good idea?

[00:07:22] Andrew Broughton: Yeah, it’s sort of complex, there’s a few avenues of enabling gaining momentum through businesses. At the moment, part of my trajectory and what I’m aiming to do is to really nail down, what are our social impact measures for our benefit realisation across the enterprise?

And this is sort of landing here because, you know, without it at that highest level of what are the KPIs that the enterprise is trying to deliver, you can instantly lose momentum in delivering things. At the end of the day, WorkSafe is an insurance product that needs to maintain, a sustainable scheme because that’s how we provide that support to the community. But things can get lost in those kind of metrics without the appropriate sort of drive and momentum through them. So when we do come back to some other work that we’ve done, that sort of tried to drive that through. We sort of hold on to, what is the positive impact. through to another metric. You can kind of have to build those connections to build that story, to continue to drive that momentum. Some of the other things that I do though, within our practice is I actually have things like, inclusiveness, baked into our JDs, our PDs.

So it’s sort of a metric for any designer’s performance to be sure that they’re being inclusive performance to be sure that they’re being inclusive and thinking about, you know, the entire Victorian community and the impact that their work will create. So, you know, it’s not as far as sort of, planetary stuff, but it’s sort of baked into each designer’s role at WorkSafe cause it’s kind of that systemic thing, can’t keep pushing to get people to write a principle about these things.

But if it’s in the job description, I got to do it. There’s a few things that I do, but I really think it’s, a lot of these things sort of come down to designers are quite good at talking about, you know, social impact, human centred design, co design, ladder of participation, all this kind of stuff. Business does not listen to that. Design is our mindset. It’s not our vocabulary. If we have this drive and this passion and this mission, and so do so many people in the business, it’s just how do you get the business to focus on those things as well?

And that’s where, your benefit of realisation comes in. And, you know, how do we sort of change those key metrics that the whole enterprise or business is moving towards to create those things. Think about root cause or systemic ways to change things. That’s kind of where I’m heading with it.

[00:09:49] Chris Hudson: Yeah. I mean, I think it definitely takes a skilled eye and a practitioner’s lens really to be able to apply that and also to be able to convert what can appear to be really high level and maybe MT metrics, up front that sit at a corporate level, corporate strategy level, and actually convert that into meaningful and tangible outcomes that are much more specific and that people can really understand and work towards. What have you find works really in that regard?

[00:10:14] Andrew Broughton: Well, some of the things that we really look at are known clinical models like biopsychosocial models. And we kind of work at the moment we’ve worked with them to sort of look at, if you can rebuild capacity in social, you can have better impact across other recovery in physical and mental. Again it’s systemic and, you know, we’re in a crisis of social isolation at the moment, which is impacting any kind of recovery or health recovery in Australia right now. Attaching those things to those other key sort of metrics can can help show why there’s a need to deliver a new service or product to boost it, to build up social capacity or, any other thing, to sort of get people re-engaged so social capacity is connectedness. It’s thriving communities. It’s getting rid of social isolation and building back, back people into life, because social impact measures are very hard, actually attaching a, what is a social impact measure is a tricky thing.

That is actually quite hard to quantify. People do great work at it but attaching it to business metrics, is a sort of a, yeah, yeah, sure. Is that the business metric? Okay, go do the thing. Let’s see the business metric

[00:11:24] Chris Hudson: Yeah. Hmm.

[00:11:25] Andrew Broughton: move, but that’s the other thing as well. It’s through doing it and it’s that that’s the battle as well.

The challenge is getting momentum up in projects that are sitting a bit left of the traditional way of doing things, but this is where the other shift in organisations need to sort of occur around being more problem centric as opposed to project centric. So, if you want to look at, what are the problems across the journeys that we’re supporting, how can we stir up evidence or test in those more complicated problems to see if they can have that upwards sort of lift in the metrics and across those journeys. Again, it’s like you start talking about social impact measures of business is going to go glassy eyed. It’s like, but how can you show that doing something differently can have a rise or an impact across those key things that they’re tracking and moving.

[00:12:13] Chris Hudson: Maybe it’s official or unofficial, but is there almost an agreement something that says we’re going to go in with the ambition that this is what we’re aiming at as an outcome for this program of work or this project. We’re going to encounter a number of things, obviously through the customer journeys, through through the societal areas in business or whatever it is that you’re uncovering. And all of that will lead to a further understanding, probably not of just the problem that you’ve identified to begin with, but some broader things. How does that unravel and what do you do with the information when you, when you come across it along the journey?

[00:12:42] Andrew Broughton: Yeah, sure. Well, I think really to summarise what you’re saying is it’s a hypothesis, right? So, you know, like whatever we’re trying to achieve, there’s like, there’s many hypothesis that we can test, you know, kind of thing to achieve that. So how do those things kind of unravel at WorkSafe? Well, we have sort of many different sort of streams of how we engage in and create design opportunities and work. And one sort of project that helps set us up a portfolio was a project that we titled WorkSafe of the future and really what this project was it was a forecasting and strategic foresight process, a project that helped define five key strategic areas that we should be considering looking at having impact in, in the future.

Like the, you years, we think that these things are emerging threats or opportunities. So that project itself is sort of loosely tied to sort of speculative futures or design strategy kind of methodologies. Really, it’s looking at what are the cold hard facts that can drive us to the next five years.

And then what’s the kind of expert opinion that can look at pushing us past those five years. So it’s a small strategic choice within a business to kind of look at what’s next and where it’s heading with like a low investment, low risk. But then, you know, what happens after that is obviously you have your folio of strategic areas where you’re going to go and test hypothesis that could look at stirring up evidence that could support future decisions.

One of the key areas we were looking at was the rapidly changing economy that we’re in right now and the state of employment, the state of education is completely different to what it was 10 years ago, let alone 20 years ago. What we did is we would then turn that into a sort of another area of diverging, looking at what is the new modern economy and what are the challenges that exist in it.

What are the behaviours that we can observe about people with our provocation about trying to replace themselves into work. One of our key metrics is getting people off the support payments and back into work and life. So, you know, this kind of raises a whole bunch of complications around what are the behavioural things that are happening? What are the barriers that exist? How do people feel about reengaging in an economy in a different way to they’re used to?

A lot of the people, you know, with manual handling injuries come from long term careers in their industries. And they can’t go back because the terrible truth is that they’ve been, you know, they, they’re injured. They’re not going to be able to recover as well so they can’t go back to their job as a mechanic or a builder, but how can we get them past the barrier of this long term life employment to think about how they could apply themselves in a different way in our now modern economy. What happens is this long tail of you know, some of the barriers are they just fall off, they become very socially isolated because they’re at home, they get payments, they can’t do much, they disconnect from their community. That insight and that barrier itself is that they need to rebuild their capacity and connectedness in community to be able to actually even engage in a conversation about rehabilitation.

Let alone a conversation about occupational rehabilitation into a new job that’s completely different to what it is. So from those kind of barriers, then, you know, we go, all right we’ll start to sort of co design or come up with some solutions of how to do that. One of the programs that, well, you know, we had some four ideas that came out of it.

We go through the rigour of doing further testing into are these desirable? Are these viable? Are these feasible? Really sort of flesh them to be services or products that can be delivered into the community. And then you kill them, know, like if they don’t work, you get rid of them.

And the ones that are keeping the most momentum and pushing forward through the business and proving highly desirable, you get them to the stage where you can pilot them. Much to the annoying success of this project we’ve done, three of them are going to pilot now, and they all have that, they all come from that kind of, one insight like that, that kind of drives through to that.

The Reims power of 10 model comes into play here, which is complicated in itself because these government agencies are already at scale. So scaling things is incredibly complicated in an already at scale business. But we just take that staged approach of, you know, really you’re looking at creating a concept idea and a service that is real enough that people think it’s highly desirable, it’s the perfect service to a certain amount.

And then we just scale it out. So boom, 100. And doing that is the quickest way to get momentum from that lower fidelity through to a full fledged experience prototype. But putting something out as a service that you are actually hands off and it is just living through a vendor doing something to stir up evidence comes with huge other complications around frameworking the evaluation, building that end to end capture within it.

There are three things now that are out in the world being tested that if that sums went well could have huge impact on our scheme. If they reach a scale level that they can be supported, they’re creating enormous amounts of financial stability, but that is through getting people off the scheme and back to work.

So, therefore, it’s building people back into their communities, bringing them back into life and connecting to those social impact ambitions that we have. So that’s sort of one way of doing it that we’ve done at WorkSafe. And, you know, it’s a long process. But the whole point is how do you move from zero to 10 or the unknown to the known and deliver?

And you need to have that whole end-to-end scope of how design can build that momentum through. And that’s really where the sort of strategic design part comes into it. Because if you don’t have a heightened enough business acumen to drive it through a business, you’re just another designer in a lab throwing ideas on a shelf. Designer mindset, business language, you know, is really what drives that momentum through businesses, in my opinion.

[00:18:50] Chris Hudson: To have got to that level of maturity is impressive in itself because I know that design is working and functioning at a more micro level with shorter term horizons and outcomes and probably smaller and less lofty ambitions than what you’ve described and probably less meaningful ones too, yeah, I’m just interested to kind of unpack that maybe a little bit, just to think about how for emerging designers or people that are thinking about how to sort of shift from, you know, you were talking about a mindset, but in a lot of cases, design as a language isn’t understood either, how do you break from a situation where you’re pretty much taking the orders to deliver something in UX to influencing the outcomes that you’ve described?

[00:19:27] Andrew Broughton: Yeah, sure. Do it. Just do the work. Like, another thing I always crap on about is like selling design. You know, like, look who we got. We got the design council. They came up with a double diamond. They did a pretty good job at it. Everyone had a go at that.

We always talk about that. You’ve got IDO with design thinking phew that cut through this massive organisation, and all these are just ways to articulate designers doing stuff, but it’s broken down into a business process. So businesses can start to understand what it is and how it works.

And there’s milestones and measurables and things that are tracking and booked activities. And one of the things that a lot of less mature organisations do is they go, we’re using that framework, that’s the innovation framework that we’re using. That’s the design framework we’re using. But then there’s no design leadership there with a design mindset to be able to sort of go, ooh no, don’t do that.

You know, like that’s a waste of time and all of a sudden it’s just like, holy shit, we did this design project and it took six months. And now somebody’s saying we should all have VR goggles and it loses its impact. But if, you’re in a position where you’re actually using a craft, that is powerful. If you’re in a UX position right now and you’re making the thing that the user interacts with, nobody else is doing that .

And it’s like you’re delivering, you’re actually getting things into people’s hands. and, you know, it’s going to get complicated depending on the size of the business and your project management office and discovery and delivery frameworks and, aw you know, be a change manager over here and a BA over there and it can all get really complicated, but it’s just like, how much more can you chip off to show the value of implying human insight into the work you’re doing?

Because really like, You’re de risking the cost of delivery in that position right there because you’re making sure that, you know, sure, maybe you haven’t had an upstream go at it to make sure that the problem is right, but you’re making sure that it’s desirable, so it’s like you’re making sure that the business objective is going to be, have the highest impact possible and that has huge value, for me, I talk a lot about ensuring relevance, because if you do start to move into these more mature design models, these higher like, problem centric thinking for an organisation and helping define what the problems are, you can get lost up there, you can just diverge and diverge and diverge. And you will never converge because it’s exciting, you’re going deep, you’re going wide, you’re doing field work, observation work, like it’s amazing work to be but is it relevant, is it actually delivering something and you’ve always got to hold on to the, that part of it, that an insights pack is interesting, but doesn’t have impact on the end user.

[00:22:08] Chris Hudson: hmm. Mm hmm.

[00:22:09] Andrew Broughton: and being able to make sure that as you mature from that craft of delivering design and you make sure that you hold on to it because that is the relevance of how you deliver through And that is where we’ve all come from, you know, like designers have been around for a really long time, but they’ve been designing comms, they’re designing experiences and interactions, they’ve been designing furniture, buildings, you know, interior fit outs and that’s all relevant, and there is nothing more relevant than someone who designs a house, like we all live in houses but the home builder

doesn’t run away and do a big ethnographic study for three years and then forgets about building houses, you’ve got to come back to what what you’re doing and how you’re delivering it, and how you’re having impact with the end user at the end of the day.

So if you are in that position, you are in a privileged position, you’re in a spot where you’re actually delivering work, to an end user to have impact. There’s another concept I’ll give you that, again, I annoy my team with about a designers realm of consciousness.

So it’s kind of like, you you start in this like place of, you are customer centric and you’re designing desirable things. But there are sort of four realms or trajectories that you can build your realm of consciousness and therefore build your understanding of why we’re addressing problems. On an upwards sort of trajectory, you’ve really got the business that you’re in or the industry that you’re in or the economy that you’re working with. And you know, that goes all the way up to why does it even exist? Why is there even a government agency to support people who are injured at work?

It’s like, well, because there was a crisis there, you know, like that’s why it exists. And then, you know, there’s many layers that come down to that, but as well, there’s the layers of delivery. So really, if you’re working in tech and digital, you know, you’re going all the way through to why is Salesforce even built the way it’s built and you need to be able to understand that downward thing as well as that upward thing at realms, you know, like your flux out, but then the two, the horizontal is kind of like what is the past and why are we here? But it’s like, you know, really it’s your context of what’s happened in the past to lead you to why I made this sort of design decision here and then the one going out the other side is the future. Like digital is fast and quick and easy and you can update it and do releases every two weeks. But if you’re going to create something, you really want it to have long lasting impact and especially when you’re making something that’s at a large scale, because it will still take years for them to get around to do the transformation, get it in an iterative process and actually make those changes. So you want to have some kind of forecasting or foresight to sort of know why you’re doing that. And that’s sort of annoyingly being called the designers realm of consciousness. And it’s like, as you mature or become more strategic, kind of start to think about that as a greater whole.

Um, and what you’re designing and the sort of quadrants that you’re moving through as you’re designing

[00:25:02] Chris Hudson: I like that. It’s like a sort of 4d version of what I thought the world of work was, but now you’ve drawn my attention to it, I won’t be able to unsee it, you know, So, cause you, you, you’re right. Your realm of vision. Your realm of influence is, up to you to determine how wide you want to set your aperture when you’re working in an organisation, because you can be totally committed to your craft.

And you can be totally committed to that in the present because you’re, head down, you’re working on a two week sprint, you’re just looking at what needs to be done and then you’ll worry about the next thing and that, that produces some amazing results, but obviously context and, you know, a curiosity around context can lead you to, to broader conversations.

And I think, tying back to your previous point, if you’re a rising star, then it’s how do you take the steps to almost enlighten yourself through the work that you’re doing, but see the longer impact, look further forward than the first delivery or the first release, look back if you think that’s interesting.

It’s a great depiction of how, I think the realm of influence can really be unpacked a little bit more for designers out there.

[00:26:00] Andrew Broughton: Yes. Well, realms of influence

[00:26:02] Chris Hudson: Should we talk about influence? I mean, how do you, how do you become influential? Because you can talk a different language to a lot of people in the world that we work and you can’t always get to a level of understanding with a lot of people.

I don’t know if it’s language, semiotics, a lot of things, but it depends largely on the people that are either your champions, they’re evangelising, or it can rely a lot on the, the proof, the fact that there’s social proof in what you’re doing, but also the outcomes that you’ve delivered as well.

So how do you progress the maturity of design in an organisation?

[00:26:34] Andrew Broughton: I mean, this is a tricky one and it’s really what’s your objective with it? And so I’ll go back to say you just do it and if it’s good, people want more of it, it’s how referrals work. And that’s just an easy way to build out your capacity. People want more because it’s good. Keep delivering. That’s at a delivery level. I think really what’s quite interesting as well is storytelling is uncontrollably influential, people who can tell compelling narratives, people who can make sure a message cuts through and especially in a political environment, you know, will always have impact and there’s a tension there because modern organisations that are running more agile and have stronger like PMOs, really are shifting away from powerful and impactful stories. So your purpose goes from more of a mission vision goal to more of a WSJF kind of thing and that is challenging, but I tell you what, storytelling trumps it all, at the end of the day, someone who can influence their peers, influence the powers above or the people above to make decisions always sort of get ahead or always sort of get that larger realm of responsibility or accountability.

[00:27:51] Chris Hudson: Yeah.

[00:27:52] Andrew Broughton: So do not shy away from storytelling because a lot of the time, just even the selling the craft of storytelling is hugely valuable for businesses.

So if you can clarify things for people and tell a narrative around it and help them get what they want across the line, there’s plenty of work after. It is all tied back to doing, you know, using design again and again in everything that you do is how you deliver that value that just gives you a wider net of influence.

[00:28:21] Chris Hudson: And that, that’s for each stage isn’t it? I mean, obviously, there’s a degree of pitching up front where you’re needing to communicate or set a vision for what you’re going to do and getting people on board with that. Then you’re keeping people involved through the process and obviously at the end when you’ve got a nice shiny new thing to show, it’s telling the story of how you got there and where it might then lead and what the possibilities are that have opened up as a result. How do you think people can best equip themselves with the right skill set there, from a storytelling point of view? Because it’s not natural to everybody. I think we can, we can safely say that.

[00:28:53] Andrew Broughton: You could be like me and go spend five years in advertising, which I don’t recommend, but I think one simple construct that I always use. So this is a hot tip going out to whoever’s

[00:29:06] Chris Hudson: Yeah, go on.

[00:29:07] Andrew Broughton: is and you know, there’s heaps of ways to do this, inside idea execution, you know, that’s a great one but you know, how might we sow that? It’s all there. But, the, what I love is, what’s the situation? You know, what is, what is actually going on? And that’s like a peeled back kind of, you know, this is the current step, this is what we’re looking at. And then what’s the complication with that? What are the pain points, you know, that exist within that?

So then what’s the answer, or what’s the question? And that’s your future state, and if you can start to build a narrative that can quantify your metrics through it, that can sort of talk to ROI through it, that can look at potential impacts as well, how you qualify those things, you know, who have you talked to and built it out, it’s very analytical and it’s very precise and it’s clear and just seems to work most of the time to cut through with business mindset.

So that’s one of the storytelling sort of frameworks that I use a fair bit.

[00:30:05] Chris Hudson: It’s made me think about what I should ask my next question, but maybe we’ll go back to some of the, I guess the harder lessons that you needed to learn in your previous lives, in your previous career positions, whatever you want to talk about really. But what are some of the things that stand out as being I guess those big moments.

[00:30:21] Andrew Broughton: I think one of the hardest lessons that always sticks with me that I always hang on to is in a project that I was consulting in. That I let my design leadership slip. I was working with a client, we were working towards doing a thing. and it was really hard because I was just working with myself a and heaps of the clients.

and it was really hard to reach consensus. and I was trying to drive a pretty straightforward, basic HCD project or workshop. I just dropped my guard because of this, like, constant trying to meet these deadlines of getting to basic kind of thing and I just let them have it and I’m like, well, if you don’t get it, that’s fine.

Like, what do you, what do you reckon? Like, how do we do it? How’s it going to sound? What are we going to do? And I just let the design leadership go. And then we went to present the thing and it was not well received, you know, like it was bad. You know, we quickly had this sort of meeting where we ducked away and in a very short period of time, we were meant to fix everything, apparently. And in that short period of time I just went back and went, alright let’s just use a basic design construct here. I know that you’re struggling with it, I know it’s hard to comprehend, but I don’t know how many more times I can explain it.

I’m just going to cut it out, we’ll present it back, and we’ll see how we go. And the mood changed, you know, like 15 minutes later and I just came out of that meeting almost had a panic attack and then, just thought, why did I do that? Why did I not just hold on to the design? What I knew was right as a designer and let it get morphed into this thing, kind of reach consensus and look at the result. So I think there’s such a hard lesson. That was a hard lesson to learn. But, it’s something that I always talk about with my team because they always feel it. You know, they always feel like it’s starting to go too wide again. You know, it’s starting to sort of feel funny and like, like never going to be able to come in.

And it’s like, It’s always the story that I bring out and be like, I’ve heard that one, Andrew, don’t tell me that one. It’s such an important lesson to make sure that, you’re an expert in diverging and converging. You’ve got a tool set and methodology that can help drive you there.

And that’s why you’re there, you’re there to facilitate a process of design with whatever problem, wicked or not, that you’re being thrown at. You need to hold on to that leadership of now this is how you do it. It can be hard, it can be complicated and look, I fucked it up once, so it’s a hard lesson learned.

[00:32:55] Chris Hudson: Yeah, it’s playing the role of the guide, isn’t it? I guess not just the team member or the, the innocent bystander. You’re actually having to take people on the journey. And obviously the story storytelling aspect that you were mentioning before really helps with that.

It reminds me of a similar situation. I was fairly, fairly early in my HCD kind of practices as well. And I was so excited by the research that, basically wanted to just play back everything to the client and I’ve been told that this client had a really short attention span and I just went hell for leather and I was determined to get through in 117 slides in about 60 minutes or something and just pump out what it was saying, but it was kind of like the so what factor wasn’t there.

And even though I was really pleased with the presentation, the amount of work that had gone into it, it wasn’t taking him anywhere. And so that was definitely a lesson learned, but similar, similar thing, really. And I think the possibility that you encounter as a designer, kind of sits with you, right?

You have to decide where the direction needs to be, where the central gravity needs to be, and also just leave certain things behind because either overindulgent or they’re, taking off at a tangent or like you’re saying, you can just go deeper and sideways and upwards and downwards, but you might be drifting from what it is you’re trying to solve.

So what are some of the kind of tips that you would give, anchoring people, in those moments of despair, where it’s, like, you’re usually quite stressed, you’re overwhelmed, you’ve got a deadline, you’re presenting in an hour, somebody else is ringing you at the same time, whatever it is, but how do you really focus in on what needs to be done. What are your personal approaches to that?

[00:34:24] Andrew Broughton: Yeah, sure. What is the outcome you are meant to be delivering? If you just gave them a version of the outcome, that is the minimal requirement. If you can build out the evidence, do the analysis and, run that golden thread all the way back to a, you know, root cause, that is magic.

But if they just wanted to fucking welcome screen, like just give them the welcome screen. If you lose sight of that, you got to focus on the outcome. What’s the outcome that you’re trying to achieve? And some like interesting stories about this, because sometimes it’s really hard and sometimes, or one project I was doing. It was quite a complex project about how to create consistent behaviours across a large workforce to their brand behavioural

know, so it’s

[00:35:10] Chris Hudson: really simple.

[00:35:11] Andrew Broughton: design across an enormous workforce. And so one of the things I did in my research was I mapped the business And I mapped and this is like, you know, just an ecosystem of influence.

So, you know, what are the tool systems or programs that are influencing across the business that then refer down into the customer? And you know, this was just me going, oh yeah, that’s kind of, I went away and did all the research and took all the notes and came back and drew this lovely thing.

And I’m like, all right, so that’s cool. That’s interesting. Let’s put that away because what do we need to be delivering? We need to be delivering programs that do this. And the client was like, ooh hang on one minute, bring that thing back out. Like, this is amazing. Look at this map. And all of a sudden, I just had this thing in my head where I was like, you would just be happy. That’s all that you want. And then again, I had to just be like no. We’ve got to move forward, we’ve got to drive past this and actually deliver some new services or programs into the business that are going to have the impact that you want. And so I made this funny joke with the lady where I was like, she’s like, can I have the map?

Can you give me the map? And I’m like, I’ll only give you the map if you print it out on the 20 meter circular rug and put it in the foyer of the building. Like that’s the only way we’re gonna do this and just got it past the map. And that’s just like, what is the outcome, because there’s been some other interesting projects that I’ve observed in the market that I haven’t had anything to do with, where they’ve been really focused on mapping and creating these artefacts they’re there to design something, not to capture these things and the results of the projects are, wow, this is really complicated.

We should uncomplicate it but that’s not really an outcome. It has done something it’s shown light on the fact that something might be over complicated But what are you designing? What are you delivering? How is it having impact on the end user from your

project So it’s hanging on to what is your outcome? And what are you aiming to design and deliver? And it’s even happening now with the work that I’m doing, you know, there’s this mass focus on capture and analysis, but really where are we going with this?

Where’s the deck? Where’s the end point? Where are we heading? My team get it. They’re like, oh yep, shit, pull us out of there. Let’s go, But it is always something that you can get like with your 117 page deck, which, you know, we used to say it’s not a deck unless it shakes the table when you throw

[00:37:24] Chris Hudson: Yeah. Is that why

[00:37:26] Andrew Broughton: Everyone gets copy well! And

Guilty, would often have drinks when the deck went over 100 pages, but you know, it’s like, you need the exact summary And even you need to have delivered something and say, here’s the next thing that’s going out to be piloted or whatnot, especially when you’re in an organisation,

[00:37:43] Chris Hudson: Mm.

[00:37:43] Andrew Broughton: The beauty of consulting is, all the hard work’s done, consulting’s just coming in to do the bit, you know, and then they’re out which is also satisfying, but in an organisation, the whole design framework is built well beyond that moment of just needing vendors wanting to do something. It’s what happens next and it’s a moment to create rapid momentum in hyper specialist expertise to then continue delivering on either side.

[00:38:09] Chris Hudson: It’s a great point around consulting being so narrowly focused and that has its own implications obviously. From an organisation point of view, if you’re within that organisation and you’re the driver and you’re the leader or the team member, it doesn’t really matter, the scope of being able to just take a wrong turn, get lost, get sidetracked, could lose you weeks and you might not even know it until somebody else pulled you up on it.

So how do you navigate some of that?

[00:38:30] Andrew Broughton: The only thing that I sort of manage is narratives. When I’m talking to teams, I just want to hear the narrative, I just want to hear like, how are you going back to the business with this?

Once you’re doing that, you’re kind of almost simplifying or getting people to understand that as a whole, you’re trying to add value to this thing. This is also a little bit different in regards to, you know, if you’re working on more of a strategic sort of experience design project or a strategic design project, you know, you are kind of outside of story points and agile and all that kind of stuff. But you can still get lost in that But if you kind of go, but but why are you doing it? To add to this overarching sort of narrative, then it’s almost like people just sort of see the need to wrap up and move on, because that’s the project is the deck that’s going to inform the decision So I think um, always try and being the team back to the higher narrative, you what is the the story that they’re going to tell that’s going to influence the decision that needs to be made. And when you’re looking at that higher narrative, how concise and simple does it need to be to deliver the impact that you need to make a decision.

So that really helps, people understand that that constant depth and diving of analysis to continue to clarify insights because you’re worried you haven’t covered all the gaps it needs to end because you need to start doing more stuff and you need to start moving on. That for me is a simple way to just help people understand that they need to move projects, but obviously, you know, there’s, if you’re in a project leading a project, there’s just good ways to be, good proactive researchers who just say, all right, seven people, similar cohort, we’re revisiting insights, we’re moving on, just the constant concept of rolling synthesis is so good. You can get teams with a documentation mindset where at the end of every week or every show, every sprint or whatever, however they decided to work.

They’re wrapping up. That’s also just a great way to sort of continue to build that momentum to be hitting those outcomes that you’re trying to achieve. Because every, at the end of every cycle that you’re working in, you’re going back to what’s the thing that we’re trying to do and then what’s a wrap up of the learnings that we’ve had?

And is it aligning to that? You’re just forced into this constant sort of repetitious pattern of doing that.

[00:40:44] Chris Hudson: I mean, that’s all good practice around documentation and yeah, the showcasing keeping everyone in the loop, I’m wondering about the kind of curveballs the things that come in from the side that you’re not expecting and that can be through the research or it can be from an internal voice as well where somebody just pipes up one day And says I’ve seen this in the paper or my neighbour was talking to me about this or have we thought about this and it just kind of completely just comes from the side.

You don’t know, you don’t know what to do with that until you’ve had to think about it a little bit more. But how do you respond to some of those side agendas?

[00:41:14] Andrew Broughton: They’re really interesting, it’s a great input. I get that level. It’s sort of like, that’s awesome. Let’s go check that out. Let’s figure out how it impacts the decisions we make, because you’ve got to remember, it’s human centred design, right?

So the business or client is also part of it. So if they have an input it’s something you have to consider. Maybe I’m lucky enough that I’ve never articulated an insight that somebody’s wholeheartedly disagreed with. But even if they did then that would just make me think a bit harder. The world is not without curveballs though. We had Miro turned off in an hour for some reason for three weeks. You know, security risk it’s off But the other thing I think I learn about designers every day is they are just so passionate and adaptable, I think, within three hours, we’ve trialed every other online cloud based platform that we could possibly get around our firewall, and had landed on a few solutions to keep moving.

So it’s kind of like you have to listen and you have to take everything on board. But if you build strong enough narratives, it should always sort of work because you’re constantly thinking about these loops and feedback loops that you’re getting in different conversations and narratives.

So, again, the power of storytelling.

[00:42:21] Chris Hudson: From what you’re describing it feels like a really controlled environment in which you work and a really pleasant one actually. And. that’s great to hear. That’s really refreshing. I’m wondering know, within that context, how you tend to handle constraints, whether you see them, some people see them as a limiter or an enabler in some cases.

Are they helpful? Are they not helpful? But your thinking there is going to be quite expansive. So how do you control what the boundaries are there?

[00:42:43] Andrew Broughton: I really think you don’t want to come across a constraint. You want to identify before you commence a project. I call them parameters, what are the parameters that you’re working in. That’s politics people, processes and tech, what are those constraints that you’re working within? That is just part of your design problem, it’s what’s in scope, what’s out of scope. You don’t want to come across it. You want to make sure it’s up front, so that everything you’re doing is working within those constraints.

And I think maybe potentially more complicated than that is sort of, potentially what are constraints that we’re working in, working in an official organisation, doing generative research with users with people. So, you know, some of our constraints are ethical considerations.

Everyone on my team is qualified in trauma informed facilitation, but it’s, we knew that up front, so we designed the mechanisms to ensure that we did follow probably ethical protocols and make sure that everyone was up to spec in trauma informed facilitation.

And that is a more complicated one, but it’s also refreshing, there’s a lot of consultancies out there who are talking about trauma informed facilitation and how it’s a speciality and an expert need, but for us, it’s just a necessity of work. You’re not going to do an interview unless you’ve done that.

And we’re not procuring from an agency who doesn’t have the right screening processes and things like that. Our consent process is full on, but we’re still doing it, and there was a lot of pioneers of WorkSafe who really pushed through to get that to happen.

I think a lot of people take it for granted in the team now that we can practice it. But it was a massive constraint. The concept of bringing an injured worker who was frustrated with their experience into the building to have a conversation is complicated. So there was a lot of work done to get through those constraints so that we can practice.

[00:44:28] Chris Hudson: That’s a really great example of just getting it done, and I’m wondering, it’s not always that you feel like it’s the art of the possible, somebody lays down the gauntlet and hopefully it’s at the start of the project or, you know, far enough in advance.

It means you can plan for it. You can set some, things in motion, but this concept of manoeuvrability isn’t always there. And it’s hard to achieve sometimes when you catch it at the right, at the wrong time, and then the organisation needs to respond, not ready for it. People need to just jump into a room, figure it out, and then you get something going.

But what are some of the big drivers of organisations, you know, particularly in your case, being successful in driving change quickly when they need to do you think?

[00:45:03] Andrew Broughton: Yeah, well, at the scale that we’re in, it’s incredibly complicated because another thing I’ve been talking to my team about, which they hate is, there’s so many layers of reform. That are in an organisation. From the political directive and legislative demand through to, you know, ministers.

and then all the way through an executive policy layers, you frameworks that already exist and then coming down on to tech platforms, tech, you know, integration, platforms themselves like this, and it just goes on, you can keep going and going around how much reform do you need to do to make reform? We currently have some legislative reform that we’re doing at WorkSafe and, team are doing an amazing job of getting around these big problems and pulling focus onto them and going towards what they’re being asked to deliver so that’s great. We also do like a lot of tech transformation and reform, which is pretty standard, across a lot of businesses really. These things do require bigger effort and a lot more focus. But they do come into their own sort of big teams and big environments that sort of focus in and do these efforts, but then we also have like reforming that we’re doing around, more bigger community needs and, this is where we’re helping like creating strategies for people to be able to sort of start on their process of reform. Reform is not easy. Transformation of a business that’s already at scale is complicated. Even evolutionary or iterative change is hard in an organisation that is so like everyone is so passionate about what they’re doing and they’re doing amazing work. But getting through the, business planning to create change, within streams of work, it’s hard for everyone. Truly creating reform, If if I remove it from WorkSafe and just talk about reform in general, depending on the scale that you’re doing it the scale that you’re doing it is the velocity that you’ll get. If you look at a transformation office and the core construct of it, really, you know, you’ve got, business value.

So somebody who’s holding on to the, what the business value is, the kind of like project manager. Then you got like, design or innovation, then you’ve got business adoption, which is, once you do all that stuff, how’s it actually gonna deliver as well as business analysts, just sort of working on maybe they’re tech focused, or business focused or whatever it is, and those kind of four strains are normal sort of constructs in transformation offices. But if you think about that construct of do we understand the value that’s trying to be happening? How can we enable that to be delivered through design? And then how good is the design going to be? So how, what is the impact of change and what are the bits and processes that are gonna go into it. The smaller the business you are, the easier it is because A, the big thing is adoption is simple because you’re just talking to people

[00:47:48] Chris Hudson: Hmm.

[00:47:49] Andrew Broughton: about change.

Your cohort is smaller so it’s easier to design desirable experiences and your processes will be less because it’s less complicated.

But no matter how large you scale that transformational work, just sort of slows with the bigger the business gets. And you know, this is where we have these huge isolated transformation offices that we know they have an X at the end of them. Or, you know, there’s other ones anywhere. They have an enormous backlog of work that they’re working towards and, the complication that often comes into them is a lot of big design up front. Like, we were talking about, getting into that space of really diverging too far. And then all of a sudden, there’s that, business adoption or tech implementation is like, come on, let’s go. And the work has to come in and just get delivered to a trainer or what’s not so, transformation reform is really hard.

And then there’s, even with this, I’m talking about at that level, but, for a designer on a team in a multidisciplinary team with a backlog of work and a product owner, it’s even more complicated, you know, roles and responsibilities, how do you show the value of design, how do you build momentum, where’s your backlog coming from why are you prioritising the way it is. It all just gets really a lot for a lot of people.

I think the best thing is what I’ve been calling sort of strategic experience design, where you actually have some designers helping plan how to do it. And you know, you’ve got a dedicated time where you’re focusing in on segmentation, current state, future state, roadmaps, and you’re really having design help in that planning stage to deliver digital transformation experiences.

It is kind of where I’m seeing value and having a lot of momentum in those projects. That’s for sure.

[00:49:25] Chris Hudson: Yeah, I mean, momentum is a key word there because without the realisation that you’re moving things along, it can feel like you’re just in the trenches, you’re on the wheel on the wheel and just not moving ahead. So I think that a lot of individuals not so much necessarily with teams, cause the work will always continue, but individuals they just run out of steam and suddenly, they’re all for it at the beginning, and then, it just kind of runs its course, another opportunity comes up, and then you’ve lost another team member, so how do you get, how do you get around some of that? Because obviously from my point of view, I think the context that you described, the strategic design, the broader ambition and the way that you can anchor everything to that is really motivating, but other people, I guess they’re so busy in the delivery and in their craft, that might be a consideration.

It might not, but how do you keep people motivated?

[00:50:08] Andrew Broughton: There’s sort of a key construct that I often run around with about sort of, you know, how do you develop three core areas across people? And it’s like, you know, what’s their mastery? How do you give them authority? And then how do you drive their purpose? I think in the modern design industry that we work in now, I don’t think it’s fair to say that your purpose should be your backlog. That’s where I kind of start drawing the line. As a manager, I’m more like well, it’s my role to inspire people. You know, kind of thing and to be, reiterating that of why we’re here at WorkSafe. What are we doing? Look at design and everyone’s doing it and look at all the ways it’s being applied around here to have positive impact and change.

[00:50:45] Chris Hudson: Mm

[00:50:45] Andrew Broughton: And then that talks to, how do we support our team to be ambitious, but also measure that ambition with the reality of what work we’re going to be doing and so I do a lot of work with the team, understanding the capabilities, understanding where they want to grow, looking at that mastery thing, and something that I’m bringing back now with a Vengeance is much more focused training but training that’s going to mean that they’re going to do it and then do it at work. I think there’s a, there’s always a complication that you can get people interested by just giving them free training sort of stuff or But why are you going to send someone with speculative futures course and then put them back into a UX role? That’s why they’re going to leave because they’re going to be like, oh I’m going to go do my design master’s design futures master’s degree at RMIT. Now I’m going to go back to working at the old bar. It’s keeping people engaged, but measured around being inspired by design, being inspired by the social impact that you’re creating, supporting and nurturing people to have that autonomy to do work the way they want to do it, which is why I just I’m only interested in the narrative.

Tell me how you’re going to do it. But you know, as long as it’s delivering the business objectives, you know, then that’s fine. So I give people a lot of space, a lot of freedom, but that is hard as well, because there is a lot of moments where, you know, and I see this in pure scrum, in other organisations where people just kind of hide in it. So if there’s less monitoring, if people are more self organised. You’re just trying to help support across a few key areas and create a general uplift that has meaning to the business. That’s kind of what we’re aiming for. Some people will just hide in that. And that’s the negative effect of it. But then there are some people in it who thrive, they take every opportunity that they can get. They start applying themselves in ways that you’ve never seen before. And all of a sudden, you’re having a skip catch up with someone and they’re going to be your boss one day, you know, kind of thing.

And you can just say them just going at it and driving and being passionate. And I think it’s that autonomy that gives people that. And there’s always certain levels that there are just sort of tough decisions, just like straight up leadership things that you can’t really have much, can’t get people autonomy over because it’s just a management sort of thing, but it’s like when it comes to practicing design and doing design one thing that I did in the past, which was really good, is I just let people self nominate what jobs I wanted to work on.

So, you know, we had a portfolio of work and there needed to be people across it and I just went around and asked everyone what they wanted to work on and we talked through the portfolio and I think I only had to make one funny call where I was like, Oh, sorry, you know, kind of thing, but that’s all right.

But otherwise a team of 12 people working on the projects they wanted to be working on and then they all did amazing stuff. It was super fun. But it is a hard balance. I mean, geographically, because we’re in Geelong, which is a regional city in Victoria, we don’t have the density of designers available in market that the city Melbourne on the road has. So we’re much more about nurturing designers with where we’re at. It’s about people, at the end of the day and, if you can provide a really supportive, great workplace for people. You can let them grow and train them in their mastery and their craft, and you can give them cool projects to work on, it’s pretty sweet. And as long as you don’t, use that opportunity to skive off in a government job, you’re gonna have success. And it is your success is only limited by your own ambition. And if you want to come and chat to me about how to write a good insight, like, I mean, yeah. It’s very much, I mean, there’s, reinventing organisations, teal frameworks, you know, there’s lots of interesting models out there that you can look at.

But I really think autonomy, mastery, and purpose beyond the backlog, is really how I help to try and build and motivate the team to keep doing work. Which I think works. I don’t know. There’s a lot of people have been around for a while. So, that’s been good.

[00:54:24] Chris Hudson: That’s really good. I mean, it’s just such a welcoming environment that you’re creating by the sound of it. And from the outside in, not a lot of people would feel comfortable, even in considering a role within government compared to what they used to. It does just doesn’t sit right with some people.

But I think from what you’re describing, when you get into it there’s such an opportunity there for not only for interesting work, but for high performance, for career development, like all the things that you’ve mentioned as well. So it’s really good to hear and encouraging to many out there who should probably try out other types of work as well, I’d say.

[00:54:54] Andrew Broughton: Yeah and I’d really encourage people to think about, the role of a designer in house is, you you’re becoming more specialised in something and there’s, there’s a lot of value in that because you get quicker momentum into things like if you are working in consultancy, one of me and my colleagues used to talk about the week zero where they send you the 100 decks that you have to read and it’s like turning a hair dryer on and you’re just staring into the hair dryer for as long as possible.

And then you turn it off and then all of a sudden you’re in the organisation, you know. That rapidly acquiring information sort of stuff is much more mechanic. And it also makes you, the parameters and the things that you’re talking about before. You get them from the get go.

You know that these things are this way for this reason. You know, the current state is the way that you are. And WorkSafe is actually a really interesting place to be from a specialisation standpoint, because it’s sort of in health, it’s in insurance, it’s in regulatory agencies, and it’s in government, but it runs like a private business. If you’re considering a sea change, it is a great place to work. You know, the surf coast is, it’s literally 15 minutes that way. I was there during the week after work.

Like, it’s a great place to

[00:56:07] Chris Hudson: I can vouch for that. I was there last week.

[00:56:10] Andrew Broughton: That’s right. We’re definitely always, always interested in talking to people about, career opportunities at WorkSafe. And, Chris, I’m sure you’ll send, share my details on LinkedIn, but please reach out if something like this is interested to you, there’s always plenty of opportunities at WorkSafe for designers.

[00:56:25] Chris Hudson: Yeah, thank you. Yeah, we usually finish by just asking that. And thank you for giving the offer before I was asked the question. So really great to talk to you. Thank you so much, Andrew. Yeah, I mean, there’s so much ground that we covered there, both around organisational structure but around personal hints and tips and tricks and things that can help both.

understand the context in which we often have to operate and navigate but also, beyond that what propels you forward as a person within some of those situations as well. So, really appreciate your time and yeah, thank you. Thank you very much.

[00:56:53] Andrew Broughton: No worries. Thanks for listening to me, Chris.

[00:56:55] Chris Hudson: Okay, so that’s it for this episode. If you’re hearing this message, you’ve listened all the way to the end. So thank you very much. We hope you enjoyed the show. We’d love to hear your feedback. So please leave us a review and share this episode with your friends, team members, leaders if you think it’ll make a difference.

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