Finding & Activating Your Secret Energy: Time to Trailblaze
“I always want to hear from the people and not just my team. Having those opportunities where you can do that in complete safety, where no idea is a silly idea is so important. You never know what you’re sitting on if you restrict people just to their job description”
Sam Yee
In this episode you’ll hear about
- Realigning Team Mindsets: Shifting attitudes from fear and holding back to taking initiative in change
- Balancing Personal Initiative and People Empowerment: Managing teams in a way that encourages their innovation but doesn’t limit you
- Responding to Disrespect: Dealing with judgement and disrespect as a leader, and as a woman in a male-dominated industry
- Establishing Inclusive Design Cultures: Empowering teams and individuals from macro scale down in collaborative involvement
- Growth vs Fixed Mindsets: Knowing how and when to prioritise and shift mindset and navigating people’s different operational styles
Key links
AFL (Australian Football League)
About our guest
Sam Yee has spent the last 20 years as a change-driven generalist working in marketing, sponsorship, digital strategy, audience measurement, analytics, market and customer research, data, insights, commercial sales, advertising and more recently, product management in SaaS/OTT subscription video platforms.
She found her niche in taking on challenging roles as part of major media and sports companies like AFL, Kayo Sports, Fox Sports & Seven West Media, and leading digital transformation and insights and product-led growth strategies.
About our host
Our host, Chris Hudson, is a Teacher, Experience Designer and Founder of business transformation coaching and consultancy Company Road.
Company Road was founded by Chris Hudson, who saw over-niching and specialisation within corporates as a significant barrier to change.
Every team approaches transformation in their own way, also bringing in their own partners to help. And while they’re working towards the same organisational goal, it’s this over-fragmentation that stunts rapid progress at a company-wide level.
Having worked as a marketer, transformation leader, teacher and practitioner of design thinking for over 20 years, both here in Australia and internationally, Chris brings a unique, deep and ‘blended’ skillset that will cohere and enable your teams to deliver ambitious and complex change programs.
Chris considers himself incredibly fortunate to have worked with some of the world’s most ambitious and successful companies, including Google, Mercedes-Benz, Accenture (Fjord) and Dulux, to name a small few. He continues to teach with Academy Xi in CX, Product Management, Design Thinking and Service Design and mentors many business leaders internationally.
Transcript
[00:00:00] Chris Hudson: Hello again, lovely people and welcome to the Company Road Podcast. This week I want to introduce you to Sam Yee. Sam’s story is a unique one. It’s a blend of passion, products, people, and purpose, all the P’s. She’s a born and bred Aussie Sydney sports fan, known for living life to the absolute fullest.
[00:00:22] She’s a total pocket rocket with contagious energy, and I warn you in advance, you won’t be able to listen to this one on double speed. Sam spent her professional life in marketing, sponsorship, digital strategy, audience measurement, analytics product, and she’s got a lot to say about the world of sports in particular, sports and media.
[00:00:42] She’s been instrumental in driving change through those industries. She’s worked at The Guardian Channel seven Foxtel and the AFL. And you might think, yes, they are male dominated businesses. So this episode is a real trailblazer’s tale, one of true inspiration where you can hear about all the results that extreme empathising people, empowerment, and just really hard work can deliver.
[00:01:04] So when we recorded this, I was in the middle of a really challenge, challenging transformation project and I’ve gotta say thank you to Sam. She really lifted me out of a funk. If you’re unsure about where your career could go right now, if you’re stuck in a bit of a rut, this episode’s definitely for you. So sit back, enjoy.
[00:01:22] Thank you, Samo. You’ve had a listen to the Company Road podcast, and you reckon I’m sounding a bit more Aussie these days, right?
[00:01:30] Sam Yee: Yes, I definitely hear the Aussie accent coming through for sure. What have we done to you?
[00:01:36] Chris Hudson: I dunno what happened, but all of a sudden I’m, I’m talking on, on these channels and I’m sounding more Aussie, but yeah, it’s been about six years since we moved over.
[00:01:44] But, yeah, Sam, we’ve known each other for, for quite a few years, you know, for most of our careers actually. So I’m absolutely delighted to welcome you to the show as a former colleague, but also as a close friend. And, uh, for the people that don’t know you, I think you’re one of the most inspirational and energetic and driven and tenacious and curious and successful women that I’ve probably worked with.
[00:02:02] So, uh, I know you’re gonna light up the show today in, in your own way. as an observation, obviously you live and work at an incredibly fast pace. I remember when you were living in London, uh, you were visiting a different European city or country every weekend or, or sometimes, you know, two a week or whatever it was for at least two years.
[00:02:21] And, uh, yeah, I’ve got incredibly fond memories of hearing those stories and, and most people couldn’t believe how much you were able to pack in during that time. So your career moves have been, Similarly impressive. how would you describe yourself to people who dunno you?
[00:02:34] Sam Yee: Yep. I, I would say I, I’m that type of person that lives life to the fullest.
[00:02:38] definitely have, I guess I would say contagious energy and I would say, you know, quite overflowing op optimism. I, I guess that’s funny hearing that back actually, because I just realised that Yep. That’s pretty much me in most angles of life. I try to pack everything in. I wanna do as much as possible that I can possibly do.
[00:02:56] and there’s not so much of a fear of missing out. It’s just more,
[00:03:00] you know, there’s so much to explore. Why, why not go and get it when you can? Yeah. So that’s probably how I’d describe people personally. yeah, my personal profile to people, I’m definitely a glass overflowing type of person.
[00:03:12] Doesn’t take much to get my energy, up to that maximum point. but I feel like some people might come and chat to me ’cause they need a bit of that spark of energy and I’m more than happy to share it and give it.
[00:03:22] Chris Hudson: Is it, is it just always on. I mean, when does the energy start and
[00:03:25] Sam Yee: stop? I don’t, I’ve just always been like this.
[00:03:28] Apparently my parents said that I. Like I didn’t cry that much. May maybe, maybe when I really needed food and I am a foodie, so I do like that. But, but really I was always a smiley type of person, like smiley type of baby. I was always organising something from primary school. You know, when I had birthday parties, I used to, I used to say, let’s have three birthday parties.
[00:03:47] ’cause I don’t want the other school classes to miss out. Everyone should share in the joy. So I just made that happen. Made my mom make three cakes. interestingly, I. I know what I need. You know, I, I, I could go and explore,
[00:04:00] you know, a whole new country on my own and feel energised by that. I don’t always have to be around people, but I am an extrovert.
[00:04:05] I, I do get energised by. By people around me socially, uh, working wise, or just in general, a group of strangers, you know, throwing me in there. I, I, I don’t mind. I find that everyone fascinating and curious in their own way
[00:04:19] Chris Hudson: and, and, and what was the journey? I mean, how did you feel you were received into the working world when you first started out?
[00:04:26] Sam Yee: Oh, that, this is such an interesting question. yeah, I, so I, because I really wanted to work in sports and it wasn’t really, uh, you know, it’s not a typical path for a young Asian, Australian woman to go into sports, you know, culturally. so I, you know, I doubled down. I, I really wanted. I really wanted it bad, so, you know, the energy and enthusiasm, throwing myself, hurling myself, I should say, into whatever I could possibly do and learn, off the back of my, my sports marketing degree, at university, I, I mean, that enthusiasm was
[00:05:00] well, was welcomed obviously at a more junior level.
[00:05:02] because obviously I was willing to take on whatever, what, whatever came my way to learn it and sort of get ahead la later on in life though, it, it was interesting as I. Evolved in my leadership role and, and approach and, and profiles and things. I, for a while there, I didn’t think it would be accepted actually.
[00:05:19] I thought too, too out the box too crazy. The types of leaders that I saw around me were pretty much white men in suits, to be honest. And there’s a certain behaviour and certain way of speaking and that kind of thing. So I, I never actually saw myself as a leader for, for a period there. But then I did have a.
[00:05:36] I would get, I guess, quite, you know, transformational, you know, experience, I suppose at one of my, at one of my jobs where I, I met some female mentors and, and coaches where they sort of reframed my definition of, of what a leader could, and should be. I. as well as sort of my ambitious goals.
[00:05:55] And so then I, I, I realised I did actually have a unique knack for
[00:06:00] bringing people together. and it’s not just bringing people together, it’s solving really hard problems or, or conflict. I found myself in a facilitator role and problem solving role. I. not just for 15 people, but suddenly it was 200 people from big departments coming to me to try and work out what they needed to do.
[00:06:16] And then it was only sort of through that experience that I realised I, I have my own leadership style. It’s in the same me style. It can still be social and extroverted and you know, I would say I have a youthful, youthful approach, I guess. which I think some people. You know, don’t they, don’t, they, they’re a bit shocked when they find out my age, I guess, or how long I’ve been working.
[00:06:36] but that’s where my, you know, that’s, that’s my style. That’s the way, you know, I, I, you know, keep people up and support people. And also, you know, when things are really hard, you don’t have to, you know, smooth over it. Some things are just really hard, but, You know, we’ve got the energy of everyone and I can sort of, bring that to the table, then, you know, we’ll get there kind of thing.
[00:06:56] So I would say it, I, it certainly, I certainly feel, I certainly
[00:07:00] feel like unique in my, in my own way, which I think everyone should that because, you know, that’s the, that’s the amazing thing about people bringing different diverse leadership styles together and getting the best out of
[00:07:09] Chris Hudson: people. Yeah. I wanna talk to you a bit about the concept of being an entrepreneur, only because it’s what we talk about on this show, but around barriers to change and, and how you get over some of those.
[00:07:21] You mentioned the people, the, the sises of the teams that you’ve had to engage and, you know, control in one way or another, or help and support in one way or another. What’s your, what are you, what are some of the things that you do to get around barriers, uh, that get in the way? So,
[00:07:37] Sam Yee: yeah, I, I have been, I was, Thinking about this concept a lot.
[00:07:40] ’cause I, I never saw myself as an entrepreneur or an entrepreneur, uh, until, until, I guess you, you put the term in front of me. I guess the way I’ve always approached things is when I come into, you know, a new environment and there’s, you know, there’s, there’s a big, uh, vision and, and goal that, that, that they’re trying to achieve when I’m thinking about my
[00:08:00] role.
[00:08:00] And then, the bigger picture, the types of, you know, barriers that I see are really more about. People and mindsets and, and fear actually, because it’s not that, it’s not that people can’t, you know, you can throw people in a room and, and, and start to think of new ways of doing things. You can do that.
[00:08:18] But, but what stops ’em from doing that? Oh, it’s not their position, it’s not their role. It’s not how we do things. Uh, we’ve always done it this way. And is those kind of, It’s more attitudes and mindsets to, to sort of, uh, o open the mind a little bit to go, well, let’s just test an experiment. And the way I got around these things is I actually came from analytics, insights, research type of roles, uh, and then I fell into product management.
[00:08:42] So I always used that evidence base to be able to have that conversation. And I actually used to say, I, I, the word strategy was always, Overused in my mind. So I always used to think that I wasn’t a strategist until one mentor of mine, uh, a boss of mine said, you know, you are, you are a strategist, you’re an
[00:09:00] evidence-based strategist.
[00:09:00] And I was like, actually, yes, that’s exactly how I do this. So, for example, you know, if, if the vision is clear and the, and the measures of of success are clear, then all I’m doing is bringing in new initiatives or new ways of doing too. New ways of, you know, approaching a, a problem that, you know, still meets that criteria.
[00:09:19] It’s just a different way to get there and here’s some evidence of either competitors doing it or a different way of thinking that can show how it can lead to new innovations or, you know, whatever it happens to be. My. Market research and, you know, analytical mind sort of kicks in to, to have a seat at the table to have that conversation because if it’s just me without the evidence that that’s a little bit harder, it’s just sort of me having new idea on its own, whereas we focus on also building the relationship and the evidence.
[00:09:46] You know, all I’m asking for is a bit of a test and experiment and let’s look at the results and if it works great, and if it’s not, Then, you know, we, we try and try again. So that’s how I’ve always sort of approached the barriers, I guess. And I think as I later in life, I realised the real importance of being able to influence people.
[00:10:06] And, uh, you know, I did this amazing, persuasion course or, uh, out of persuasion course I guess where yeah, I, I was sort of, I found the line a little bit interesting ’cause I thought, when is it manipulation or I’m persuading, and then I realised it was really persuading with positive intent, but. That comes with a lot of things that comes with, sort of empathising with the other people that you’re trying to convince and knowing yourself, the credibility stuff, earning trust, building relationships, as well as actually doing the work itself of what you’re actually trying to achieve.
[00:10:37] And getting buy-in
[00:10:39] Chris Hudson: that way. I mean, there’s, there’s so much in that response. I think that actually. What you say about evidencing is, is really key. You know, obviously in, in getting people behind a certain purpose or a certain mission or vision, do you apply that lens when you’re hearing a vision or a purpose or, or a mission or a strategy played back to you for the first time?
[00:10:58] And how do you, how do
[00:11:00] you respond when you can see there are gaps in that evidence base?
[00:11:03] Sam Yee: Yeah. I mean, well, I don’t, I probably don’t jump into it straight away. I think the first thing is to really listen and observe, uh, understand what’s happened before, understand the, what’s happening, you know, right now, but also understanding what the real, you know, future vision that they’re trying to get to, you know, so you can set that path.
[00:11:20] Yeah. In terms of like identifying gaps, like, uh, Uh, you know, uh, whilst sort of information gathering, let’s put it that way. And also finding, uh, talking to, uh, people in the company, in different departments on their take on things. ’cause you know, quite interestingly, sometimes they actually have the answer between them, but they never collaborated together or they never had that conversation and, and things like that.
[00:11:40] So when I hear a strategy or, you know, maybe I’m starting in a new role and you know, sort of the. The path has been outlined, and I’m probably super excited about where they wanna go. And I’m like, what can I do? What’s there already? How can I empower the people to also do that? Yeah. It’s sort of a, it’s sort of like a bit of a
[00:12:00] analytical assessment, sort of, you know, in my, in my own. Sort of, you know, documentation, I guess.
[00:12:05] But how I’d approach it with the people, you know, wouldn’t be necessarily sharing that documentation, just be sort of sharing observations, getting the input, refining that, and thinking about what, how they would fill the gaps as well. It’s not, it’s not me coming into fill the gaps and go ta-da, you know, I often see my role as going, you know, with.
[00:12:21] The amazing, diverse group of people that we’ve got. How best could we tackle this and facilitate that environment and the conversations to be able to do that? And you know, I may very well have some ideas, but I won’t just go, right. I’ve, I’ve joined and this is what’s gonna happen. I want. I just throw it open and say, how, you know, is, is this the thing?
[00:12:41] How can we improve that? This is based on my knowledge and experience, but, you know, combined with the knowledge and experience of everyone else in the room, that could be so much better or, or, you know, even pivot to something else.
[00:12:50] Chris Hudson: So, I mean, it’s, it’s hard, isn’t it? It must be a hard balance because on one hand you’re very energetic, you know, you’re setting the, setting the scene, you’re setting the vision.
[00:12:59] You’re, you
[00:13:00] know, you’re a leader and, and on the other side, you know, you’re a manager. You have to obviously, empower people to feel like they’re being included in the process as well. What’s, what’s your take on that and how do you, how do you work in that respect? Yeah,
[00:13:12] Sam Yee: I mean, I don’t see how you can do it without the people.
[00:13:14] I mean, I guess it depends what type of leader you are and, and what, what you think is gonna get you to success. But, you know, I always tell people like, organisations are just groups of individual people. Trying to do amazing things together, and it’s actually really hard. So the role of the leaders to f facilitate an environment to be able to do that.
[00:13:33] So yes, there’s, uh, you know, hard business goals, I’m sure. Which I’ll always be transparent with the team because we’re in this together. We, you know, if there’s a hard goal that that needs to be met, a hard objective that needs to be met, we may, it may be a lump it or like it a lump, lump it or like it situation, but, but we can get there together.
[00:13:49] We can do that. In a more efficient way, we could do that in a more innovative way. Like we, you know, we are, we’re all employees in an organisation, but when you let freedom
[00:14:00] sort of, it will allow freedom and enable people to do what they’re good at. And also almost, you know, push them a little bit into uncomfortable zones where they can grove and more and they’ll be shocked at what they can do.
[00:14:10] In a safe environment, you’ll tackle other problems that you didn’t even see before, proactively solve problems that you. Didn’t, see before, and I, I don’t, I only have eyes and ears of, you know, one person. Imagine if you have the 20, 40, 50, 200 people, but they’re an environment where they can, they, they have trust and environment where they know who they need to speak to.
[00:14:30] They can foresee who this might impact. So they’ll get them in and people are trusting that they are being accountable for the roles that they’ve been hired into, which is also role of leader. If that is not clear and then people get confused, then it, then it, you know, it gets. Like a little bit spaghetti.
[00:14:44] So typically in, in my teams, I want to be very sure about what the business strategy is. You know, I, I actually, I used to tr I used to give my job description to my team ’cause I want them to know what I’m on the hook for. And I go, if you wanna get ahead. Well, here’s what, here’s
[00:15:00] the bigger thing that, uh, I’m on the hook for and I’m, I’ll be more than supportive and encouraging, to, uh, advance the careers and growth of the people in my team.
[00:15:09] ’cause it’s good for them, it’s good for the team, it’s good for me and it’s good for the organisation because we’re, it should be under the same umbrella. Obviously. It gets a little bit murky, you know, senior leadership are a bit murky about their own vision, right? But, but typically that’s how I’ve actually had.
[00:15:23] That evidence-based conversation, I link it always to, okay, what was the strategic goal of this business? Where do we wanna be in three, five years? Okay. Even though my role is this, actually, the bigger picture is, you know what, if we work with that department, that department, or we initiate this new project, we’ll actually we’ll really, really achieve that big company vision.
[00:15:42] It doesn’t really matter that my role, you know, in writing is this, but that’s how you sort of get the momentum of new initiatives and new. And get people involved as well. Because it shouldn’t just be me coming up with the new initiatives. It’s, you know, I wanna hear from the people and not just my team.
[00:15:58] Other, you know, having those,
[00:16:00] I guess, opportunities where you can do that in complete safety. You know, there’s no silly idea. There’s no, you know, You never know what you’re sitting on, uh, especially if you restrict people just to that, you know, job description.
[00:16:11] Chris Hudson: Yeah. I mean, there’s, there’s definitely something to be said for, for uniting people around that common purpose, but also you have to have a little bit of a locus for change.
[00:16:20] You have to, I. Almost unsettled the situation just a little bit to get people thinking and moving outside of what they would traditionally do. Is that something that, that you see and what, what kind of steps or processes or you know, things do you use to, to get people thinking a little bit more laterally and probably a bit
[00:16:37] Sam Yee: more broadly?
[00:16:37] So, yeah, that I feel like I’ve. Experienced this a lot, mainly ’cause I’ve worked in a lot of traditional media companies going through some sort of digital transformation. But the, the traditional media companies had built up their success over 20, 30, 40, 50 years. You know, and some people are still working there 20, 30 years.
[00:16:53] So, so that, that sort of, more fixed mindset and fear that I was talking about, you know, is really prevalent there.
[00:17:00] It’s that thing about, you know, when I just mentioned about fear, you know, I’m not trying to make them feel intimidated by the situation, but it’s more about showcasing. Almost like a hope of a possibility of a different.
[00:17:14] Different type of situation that can evolve because typically, speaking, the, the situation would’ve been more, you know, uh, like I said before, you know, it’s always been done this way and I’m used to this as a comfort zone, safety net, but it’s that promise of, but it could be actually, I. It could be much better.
[00:17:31] Isn’t that something that you want? Isn’t that something, you know, don’t you wanna grow? Or, you know, there’s much more possibilities for growth for yourself, for your team, et cetera, and, and for the business. You’ll, you’ll even be rewarded for it by, you know, sort of thinking about things a little, a little bit differently.
[00:17:47] Again, it also just comes down to evidence as well. Sometimes, and you know, this, this might be controversial, but some, some people’s. Goals are to have like, more, more recognition or, you know, PR type things,
[00:18:00] right? And so I’ll actually say this is a way to do that because I don’t really mind what their motivation is.
[00:18:05] It’s not illegal or anything, so that’s fine if that’s your personal goal. But I will say something like, you know, if you think about this a bit more innovatively, there’ll be a press release about that. You’ll be spearheading this initiative and then all these new, you know, business opportunities will arrive and you’ll, you’ll have to spearhead those because, you know, this is what part of that is.
[00:18:23] And it’s sort of just, you know, it really comes down to a, a bit empathising with those people and what their motivations are or what their fears are, to give them the promise of what could be. Uh, like I said, it sort of all comes down to people for me. For some reason, somehow over my career, I’ve been able to earn and build people’s trust quite quickly.
[00:18:41] And that’s been a great advantage because then, then I can have these vulnerable conversations. You know, if you come in and sort of try and run everything and go, right, we’re just gonna do this, you know, they’re not really, I know it’s a buzzword or buzz phrase, but they’re not really on the journey.
[00:18:55] But I genuinely want them to be on the journey. ’cause I, I don’t wanna be holding anyone’s hand or be telling anyone what to do.
[00:19:00] I. I just want them to be on a journey and not fixed in one part of the road, because then I know things are happening. Things will be moving, things are shifting. Things can adapt.
[00:19:09] You know, there’s some agility. Otherwise, it really is how it was before. And then there’s no movement. And as you can tell my energy, I can’t be static.
[00:19:18] Chris Hudson: Yeah, I could tell. We’ll see how we go. We’ve got how long left to record this. Before you need to do something else. Sure.
[00:19:26] Sam Yee: Actually, I did. I probably have two other meetings today.
[00:19:30] Chris Hudson: All good. Yeah. Just thinking about that and, and, and getting to know people and around empathy, you know, there’s certain things that you, you would recommend that people consider as doing in just getting to know people, because I think that in business, as you know, you know, it’s, it’s driven by ceremony and ritual and, and meetings.
[00:19:48] Mm. Lots of meetings and you could just get caught up in that. You could do that day in, day out. You could do it for weeks and weeks and years and years, but what’s, what’s the secret to kind of putting that, letting that run,
[00:20:00] putting it to, to one side, but then also getting to know people at a deep, at a deeper level.
[00:20:04] Sam Yee: Oh, that’s a big one. I think I’m still trying to unpack that myself, over the last few months, to be honest, and how I’ve done this over when I’ve been self-reflecting over my own career. But I, I guess I can speak for myself where. I would say that I have a genuine care and curiosity for the person I’m talking to and what, whatever’s important to, like, you know, uh, I’ve worked with a lot with, let’s say video game developers.
[00:20:28] Now I don’t play video games and I, I know nothing about that or, or even the car mechanics. It, it doesn’t really matter what it is. The point is that it’s important to them, and I’m thoroughly interested in why it’s important to them. It’s just like how I love sports and I can talk about sports forever and ever, and I get really amped up and some people hate sports and, and, but they, but they kind of like the joy that I get from, from talking about it, if you get what I mean.
[00:20:52] So, yeah, it’s really any, anyone that’s. You know, come across my way, whether they were a new employee or even if I was a
[00:21:00] new employee in a new environment, it’s still actually the same approach because it’s still a person. It’s still a person. Like it’s not a, you know, that’s why they call it people and culture, not human resources anymore.
[00:21:11] It’s not just a resource that’s sitting next to me. There’s a human person that that’s more than just their job description. And the thing is, if I can tack into, well, sorry, hack into watch. Really drives them and what they’re really interested in or find commonalities. Like I said, we don’t have to have the same interests at all.
[00:21:28] But, you know, I’ve been able to, uh, well, I guess, establish and, and have really good relationships, say with,
[00:00:00] Chris Hudson: Hello again, lovely people and welcome to the Company Road Podcast. This week I want to introduce you to Sam Yee. Sam’s story is a unique one. It’s a blend of passion, products, people, and purpose, all the P’s. She’s a born and bred Aussie Sydney sports fan, known for living life to the absolute fullest.
[00:00:22] She’s a total pocket rocket with contagious energy, and I warn you in advance, you won’t be able to listen to this one on double speed. Sam spent her professional life in marketing, sponsorship, digital strategy, audience measurement, analytics product, and she’s got a lot to say about the world of sports in particular, sports and media.
[00:00:42] She’s been instrumental in driving change through those industries. She’s worked at The Guardian Channel seven Foxtel and the AFL. And you might think, yes, they are male dominated businesses. So this episode is a real trailblazer’s tale, one of true inspiration where you can hear about all the results that extreme
[00:01:00] empathizing people, empowerment, and just really hard work can deliver.
[00:01:04] So when we recorded this, I was in the middle of a really challenge, challenging transformation project and I’ve gotta say thank you to Sam. She really lifted me out of a funk. If you’re unsure about where your career could go right now, if you’re stuck in a bit of a rut, this episode’s definitely for you. So sit back, enjoy.
[00:01:22] Thank you, Sam Samo. You’ve had a listen to the Company Road podcast, and you reckon I’m sounding a bit more Aussie these days, right?
[00:01:30] Sam Yee: Yes, I definitely hear the Aussie accent coming through for sure. What have we done to you?
[00:01:36] Chris Hudson: I dunno what happened, but all of a sudden I’m, I’m talking on, on these channels and I’m sounding more Aussie, but yeah, it’s been about six years since we moved over.
[00:01:44] But, yeah, Sam, we’ve known each other for, for quite a few years, you know, for most of our careers actually. So I’m absolutely delighted to welcome you to the show as a former colleague, but also as a close friend. And, uh, for the people that don’t know you, I think you’re one of the most inspirational and energetic and driven and tenacious and
[00:02:00] curious and successful women that I’ve probably worked with.
[00:02:02] So, uh, I know you’re gonna light up the show today in, in your own way. as an observation, obviously you live and work at an incredibly fast pace. I remember when you were living in London, uh, you were visiting a different European city or country every weekend or, or sometimes, you know, two a week or whatever it was for at least two years.
[00:02:21] And, uh, yeah, I’ve got incredibly fond memories of hearing those stories and, and most people couldn’t believe how much you were able to pack in during that time. So your career moves have been, Similarly impressive. how would you describe yourself to people who dunno you?
[00:02:34] Sam Yee: Yep. I, I would say I, I’m that type of person that lives life to the fullest.
[00:02:38] definitely have, I guess I would say contagious energy and I would say, you know, quite overflowing op optimism. I, I guess that’s funny hearing that back actually, because I just realised that Yep. That’s pretty much me in most angles of life. I try to pack everything in. I wanna do as much as possible that I can possibly do.
[00:02:56] and there’s not so much of a fear of missing out. It’s just more,
[00:03:00] you know, there’s so much to explore. Why, why not go and get it when you can? Yeah. So that’s probably how I’d describe people personally. yeah, my personal profile to people, I’m definitely a glass overflowing type of person.
[00:03:12] Doesn’t take much to get my energy, up to that maximum point. but I feel like some people might come and chat to me ’cause they need a bit of that spark of energy and I’m more than happy to share it and give it.
[00:03:22] Chris Hudson: Is it, is it just always on. I mean, when does the energy start and
[00:03:25] Sam Yee: stop? I don’t, I’ve just always been like this.
[00:03:28] Apparently my parents said that I. Like I didn’t cry that much. May maybe, maybe when I really needed food and I am a foodie, so I do like that. But, but really I was always a smiley type of person, like smiley type of baby. I was always organizing something from primary school. You know, when I had birthday parties, I used to, I used to say, let’s have three birthday parties.
[00:03:47] ’cause I don’t want the other school classes to miss out. Everyone should share in the joy. So I just made that happen. Made my mom make three cakes. interestingly, I. I know what I need. You know, I, I, I could go and explore,
[00:04:00] you know, a whole new country on my own and feel energized by that. I don’t always have to be around people, but I am an extrovert.
[00:04:05] I, I do get energized by. By people around me socially, uh, working wise, or just in general, a group of strangers, you know, throwing me in there. I, I, I don’t mind. I find that everyone fascinating and curious in their own way
[00:04:19] Chris Hudson: and, and, and what was the journey? I mean, how did you feel you were received into the working world when you first started out?
[00:04:26] Sam Yee: Oh, that, this is such an interesting question. yeah, I, so I, because I really wanted to work in sports and it wasn’t really, uh, you know, it’s not a typical path for a young Asian, Australian woman to go into sports, you know, culturally. so I, you know, I doubled down. I, I really wanted. I really wanted it bad, so, you know, the energy and enthusiasm, throwing myself, hurling myself, I should say, into whatever I could possibly do and learn, off the back of my, my sports marketing degree, at university, I, I mean, that enthusiasm was
[00:05:00] well, was welcomed obviously at a more junior level.
[00:05:02] because obviously I was willing to take on whatever, what, whatever came my way to learn it and sort of get ahead la later on in life though, it, it was interesting as I. Evolved in my leadership role and, and approach and, and profiles and things. I, for a while there, I didn’t think it would be accepted actually.
[00:05:19] I thought too, too out the box too crazy. The types of leaders that I saw around me were pretty much white men in suits, to be honest. And there’s a certain behavior and certain way of speaking and that kind of thing. So I, I never actually saw myself as a leader for, for a period there. But then I did have a.
[00:05:36] I would get, I guess, quite, you know, transformational, you know, experience, I suppose at one of my, at one of my jobs where I, I met some female mentors and, and coaches where they sort of reframed my definition of, of what a leader could, and should be. I. as well as sort of my ambitious goals.
[00:05:55] And so then I, I, I realised I did actually have a unique knack for
[00:06:00] bringing people together. and it’s not just bringing people together, it’s solving really hard problems or, or conflict. I found myself in a facilitator role and problem solving role. I. not just for 15 people, but suddenly it was 200 people from big departments coming to me to try and work out what they needed to do.
[00:06:16] And then it was only sort of through that experience that I realised I, I have my own leadership style. It’s in the same me style. It can still be social and extroverted and you know, I would say I have a youthful, youthful approach, I guess. which I think some people. You know, don’t they, don’t, they, they’re a bit shocked when they find out my age, I guess, or how long I’ve been working.
[00:06:36] but that’s where my, you know, that’s, that’s my style. That’s the way, you know, I, I, you know, keep people up and support people. And also, you know, when things are really hard, you don’t have to, you know, smooth over it. Some things are just really hard, but, You know, we’ve got the energy of everyone and I can sort of, bring that to the table, then, you know, we’ll get there kind of thing.
[00:06:56] So I would say it, I, it certainly, I certainly feel, I certainly
[00:07:00] feel like unique in my, in my own way, which I think everyone should that because, you know, that’s the, that’s the amazing thing about people bringing different diverse leadership styles together and getting the best out of
[00:07:09] Chris Hudson: people. Yeah. I wanna talk to you a bit about the concept of being an entrepreneur, only because it’s what we talk about on this show, but around barriers to change and, and how you get over some of those.
[00:07:21] You mentioned the people, the, the sizes of the teams that you’ve had to engage and, you know, control in one way or another, or help and support in one way or another. What’s your, what are you, what are some of the things that you do to get around barriers, uh, that get in the way? So,
[00:07:37] Sam Yee: yeah, I, I have been, I was, Thinking about this concept a lot.
[00:07:40] ’cause I, I never saw myself as an entrepreneur or an entrepreneur, uh, until, until, I guess you, you put the term in front of me. I guess the way I’ve always approached things is when I come into, you know, a new environment and there’s, you know, there’s, there’s a big, uh, vision and, and goal that, that, that they’re trying to achieve when I’m thinking about my
[00:08:00] role.
[00:08:00] And then, the bigger picture, the types of, you know, barriers that I see are really more about. People and mindsets and, and fear actually, because it’s not that, it’s not that people can’t, you know, you can throw people in a room and, and, and start to think of new ways of doing things. You can do that.
[00:08:18] But, but what stops ’em from doing that? Oh, it’s not their position, it’s not their role. It’s not how we do things. Uh, we’ve always done it this way. And is those kind of, It’s more attitudes and mindsets to, to sort of, uh, o open the mind a little bit to go, well, let’s just test an experiment. And the way I got around these things is I actually came from analytics, insights, research type of roles, uh, and then I fell into product management.
[00:08:42] So I always used that evidence base to be able to have that conversation. And I actually used to say, I, I, the word strategy was always, Overused in my mind. So I always used to think that I wasn’t a strategist until one mentor of mine, uh, a boss of mine said, you know, you are, you are a strategist, you’re an
[00:09:00] evidence-based strategist.
[00:09:00] And I was like, actually, yes, that’s exactly how I do this. So, for example, you know, if, if the vision is clear and the, and the measures of of success are clear, then all I’m doing is bringing in new initiatives or new ways of doing too. New ways of, you know, approaching a, a problem that, you know, still meets that criteria.
[00:09:19] It’s just a different way to get there and here’s some evidence of either competitors doing it or a different way of thinking that can show how it can lead to new innovations or, you know, whatever it happens to be. My. Market research and you know, analytical mind sort of kicks in to, to have a seat at the table to have that conversation because if it’s just me without the evidence that that’s a little bit harder, it’s just sort of me having new idea on its own, whereas we focus on also building the relationship and the evidence.
[00:09:46] You know, all I’m asking for is a bit of a test and experiment and let’s look at the results and if it works great, and if it’s not, Then, you know, we, we try and try again. so that’s how I’ve always sort of approached the barriers, I guess. And I think as I
[00:10:00] later in life, I realised the real importance of being able to influence people.
[00:10:06] And, uh, you know, I did this amazing, persuasion course or, uh, out of persuasion course I guess where yeah, I, I was sort of, I found the line a little bit interesting ’cause I thought, when is it manipulation or I’m persuading, and then I realised it was really persuading with positive intent, but. That comes with a lot of things that comes with, sort of empathizing with the other people that you’re trying to convince and knowing yourself, the credibility stuff, earning trust, building relationships, as well as actually doing the work itself of what you’re actually trying to achieve.
[00:10:37] and, and getting buy-in
[00:10:39] Chris Hudson: that way. I mean, there’s, there’s so much in that response. I think that actually. What you say about evidencing is, is really key. You know, obviously in, in getting people behind a certain purpose or a certain mission or vision, do you apply that lens when you’re hearing a vision or a purpose or, or a mission or a strategy played back to you for the first time?
[00:10:58] And how do you, how do
[00:11:00] you respond when you can see there are gaps in that evidence base?
[00:11:03] Sam Yee: Yeah. I mean, well, I don’t, I probably don’t jump into it straight away. I think the first thing is to really listen and observe, uh, understand what’s happened before, understand the, what’s happening, you know, right now, but also understanding what the real, you know, future vision that they’re trying to get to, you know, so you can set that path.
[00:11:20] Yeah. In terms of like identifying gaps, like, uh, Uh, you know, uh, whilst sort of information gathering, let’s put it that way. And also finding, uh, talking to, uh, people in the company, in different departments on their take on things. ’cause you know, quite interestingly, sometimes they actually have the answer between them, but they never collaborated together or they never had that conversation and, and things like that.
[00:11:40] So when I hear a strategy or, you know, maybe I’m starting in a new role and you know, sort of the. The path has been outlined, and I’m probably super excited about where they wanna go. And I’m like, what can I do? What’s there already? How can I empower the people to also do that? Yeah. It’s sort of a, it’s sort of like a bit of a
[00:12:00] analytical assessment, sort of, you know, in my, in my own, Sort of, you know, documentation, I guess.
[00:12:05] But how I’d approach it with the people, you know, wouldn’t be necessarily sharing that documentation, just be sort of sharing observations, getting the input, refining that, and thinking about what, how they would fill the gaps as well. It’s not, it’s not me coming into fill the gaps and go tadda, you know, I often see my role as going, you know, with.
[00:12:21] The amazing, diverse group of people that we’ve got. How best could we tackle this and facilitate that environment and the conversations to be able to do that? And you know, I may very well have some ideas, but I won’t just go, right. I’ve, I’ve joined and this is what’s gonna happen. I want. I just throw it open and say, how, you know, is, is this the thing?
[00:12:41] How can we improve that? This is based on my knowledge and experience, but, you know, combined with the knowledge and experience of everyone else in the room, that could be so much better or, or, you know, even pivot to something else.
[00:12:50] Chris Hudson: So, I mean, it’s, it’s hard, isn’t it? It must be a hard balance because on one hand you’re very energetic, you know, you’re setting the, setting the scene, you’re setting the vision.
[00:12:59] You’re, you
[00:13:00] know, you’re a leader and, and on the other side, you know, you’re a manager. You have to obviously, empower people to feel like they’re being included in the process as well. What’s, what’s your take on that and how do you, how do you work in that respect? Yeah,
[00:13:12] Sam Yee: I mean, I don’t see how you can do it without the people.
[00:13:14] I mean, I guess it depends what type of leader you are and, and what, what you think is gonna get you to success. But, you know, I always tell people like, organizations are just groups of individual people. Trying to do amazing things together, and it’s actually really hard. so the role of the leaders to f facilitate an environment to be able to do that.
[00:13:33] So yes, there’s, uh, you know, hard business goals, I’m sure. which I’ll always be transparent with the team because we’re in this together. We, you know, if there’s a hard goal that that needs to be met, a hard objective that needs to be met, we may, it may be a lump it or like it a lump, lump it or like it situation, but, but we can get there together.
[00:13:49] We can do that. In a more efficient way, we could do that in a more innovative way. Like we, you know, we are, we’re all employees in an organization, but when you let freedom
[00:14:00] sort of, it will allow freedom and enable people to do what they’re good at. And also almost, you know, push them a little bit into uncomfortable zones where they can grove and more and they’ll be shocked at what they can do.
[00:14:10] in a safe environment, you’ll tackle other problems that you didn’t even see before, proactively solve problems that you. Didn’t, see before, and I, I don’t, I only have eyes and ears of, you know, one person. Imagine if you have the 20, 40, 50, 200 people, but they’re an environment where they can, they, they have trust and environment where they know who they need to speak to.
[00:14:30] They can foresee who this might impact. So they’ll get them in and people are trusting that they are being accountable for the roles that they’ve been hired into, which is also role of leader. If that is not clear and then people get confused, then it, then it, you know, it gets. Like a little bit spaghetti.
[00:14:44] So typically in, in my teams, I want to be very sure about what the business strategy is. You know, I, I actually, I used to tr I used to give my job description to my team ’cause I want them to know what I’m on the hook for. And I go, if you wanna get ahead. Well, here’s what, here’s
[00:15:00] the bigger thing that, uh, I’m on the hook for and I’m, I’ll be more than supportive and encouraging, to, uh, advance the careers and growth of the people in my team.
[00:15:09] ’cause it’s good for them, it’s good for the team, it’s good for me and it’s good for the organization because we’re, it should be under the same umbrella. Obviously. It gets a little bit murky, you know, senior leadership are a bit murky about their own vision, right? But, but typically that’s how I’ve actually had.
[00:15:23] That evidence-based conversation, I link it always to, okay, what was the strategic goal of this business? Where do we wanna be in three, five years? Okay. Even though my role is this, actually, the bigger picture is, you know what, if we work with that department, that department, or we initiate this new project, we’ll actually we’ll really, really achieve that big company vision.
[00:15:42] It doesn’t really matter that my role, you know, in writing is this, but that’s how you sort of get the momentum of new initiatives and new. And get people involved as well. because it shouldn’t just be me coming up with the new initiatives. It’s, you know, I wanna hear from the people and not just my team.
[00:15:58] Other, you know, having those,
[00:16:00] I guess, opportunities where you can do that in complete safety. You know, there’s no silly idea. There’s no, you know, You never know what you’re sitting on, uh, especially if you restrict people just to that, you know, job description.
[00:16:11] Chris Hudson: Yeah. I mean, there’s, there’s definitely something to be said for, for uniting people around that common purpose, but also you have to have a little bit of a locus for change.
[00:16:20] You have to, I. Almost unsettled the situation just a little bit to get people thinking and moving outside of what they would traditionally do. Is that something that, that you see and what, what kind of steps or processes or you know, things do you use to, to get people thinking a little bit more laterally and probably a bit
[00:16:37] Sam Yee: more broadly?
[00:16:37] So, yeah, that I feel like I’ve. Experienced this a lot, mainly ’cause I’ve worked in a lot of traditional media companies going through some sort of digital transformation. But the, the traditional media companies had built up their success over 20, 30, 40, 50 years. You know, and some people are still working there 20, 30 years.
[00:16:53] So, so that, that sort of, more fixed mindset and fear that I was talking about, you know, is really prevalent there.
[00:17:00] It’s that thing about, you know, when I just mentioned about fear, you know, I’m not trying to make them feel intimidated by the situation, but it’s more about showcasing. Almost like a hope of a possibility of a different.
[00:17:14] Different type of situation that can evolve because typically, speaking, the, the situation would’ve been more, you know, uh, like I said before, you know, it’s always been done this way and I’m used to this as a comfort zone, safety net, but it’s that promise of, but it could be actually, I. It could be much better.
[00:17:31] Isn’t that something that you want? Isn’t that something, you know, don’t you wanna grow? Or, you know, there’s much more possibilities for growth for yourself, for your team, et cetera, and, and for the business. You’ll, you’ll even be rewarded for it by, you know, sort of thinking about things a little, a little bit differently.
[00:17:47] Again, it also just comes down to evidence as well. Sometimes, and you know, this, this might be controversial, but some, some people’s. Goals are to have like, more, more recognition or, you know, PR type things,
[00:18:00] right? And so I’ll actually say this is a way to do that because I don’t really mind what their motivation is.
[00:18:05] you know, it’s not illegal or anything, so that’s fine if that’s your personal goal. but I will say something like, you know, if you think about this a bit more innovatively, there’ll be a press release about that. You’ll be spearheading this initiative and then all these new, you know, business opportunities will arrive and you’ll, you’ll have to spearhead those because, you know, this is what part of that is.
[00:18:23] And it’s sort of just, you know, it really comes down to a, a bit empathizing with those people and what their motivations are or what their fears are, to give them the promise of what could be. Uh, like I said, it sort of all comes down to people for me. For some reason, somehow over my career, I’ve been able to earn and build people’s trust quite quickly.
[00:18:41] And that’s been a great advantage because then, then I can have these vulnerable conversations. Um mm. You know, if you come in and sort of try and run everything and go, right, we’re just gonna do this, you know, they’re not really, I know it’s a buzzword or buzz phrase, but they’re not really on the journey.
[00:18:55] But I genuinely want them to be on the journey. ’cause I, I don’t wanna be holding anyone’s hand or be telling anyone what to do.
[00:19:00] I. I just want them to be on a journey and not fixed in one part of the road, because then I know things are happening. Things will be moving, things are shifting. Things can adapt.
[00:19:09] You know, there’s some agility. Otherwise, it really is how it was before. And then there’s no movement. And as you can tell my energy, I can’t be static.
[00:19:18] Chris Hudson: Yeah, I could tell. We’ll see how we go. We’ve got how long left to record this. Before you need to do something else. Sure.
[00:19:26] Sam Yee: Actually, I did. I probably have two other meetings today.
[00:19:30] Chris Hudson: All good. Yeah. Just thinking about that and, and, and getting to know people and around empathy, you know, there’s certain things that you, you would recommend that people consider as doing in just getting to know people, because I think that in business, as you know, you know, it’s, it’s driven by ceremony and ritual and, and meetings.
[00:19:48] Mm. Lots of meetings and you could just get caught up in that. You could do that day in, day out. You could do it for weeks and weeks and years and years, but what’s, what’s the secret to kind of putting that, letting that run,
[00:20:00] putting it to, to one side, but then also getting to know people at a deep, at a deeper level.
[00:20:04] Sam Yee: Oh, that’s a big one. I think I’m still trying to unpack that myself, over the last few months, to be honest, and how I’ve done this over when I’ve been self-reflecting over my own career. But I, I guess I can speak for myself where. I would say that I have a genuine care and curiosity for the person I’m talking to and what, whatever’s important to, like, you know, uh, I’ve worked with a lot with, let’s say video game developers.
[00:20:28] Now I don’t play video games and I, I know nothing about that or, or even the car mechanics. It, it doesn’t really matter what it is. The point is that it’s important to them, and I’m thoroughly interested in why it’s important to them. It’s just like how I love sports and I can talk about sports forever and ever, and I get really amped up and some people hate sports and, and, but they, but they kind of like the joy that I get from, from talking about it, if you get what I mean.
[00:20:52] So, yeah, it’s really any, anyone that’s. You know, come across my way, whether they were a new employee or even if I was a
[00:21:00] new employee in a new environment, it’s still actually the same approach because it’s still a person. It’s still a person. Like it’s not a, you know, that’s why they call it people and culture, not human resources anymore.
[00:21:11] It’s not just a resource that’s sitting next to me. There’s a human person that that’s more than just their job description. And the thing is, if I can tack into, well, sorry, hack into watch. Really drives them and what they’re really interested in or find commonalities. Like I said, we don’t have to have the same interests at all.
[00:21:28] But, you know, I’ve been able to, uh, well, I guess, establish and, and have really good relationships, say with, technology developers who would typically are probably more introverted than myself. Now, you would think that I, you know, they just wanna stay away from me. Like, oh my gosh, it’s too loud or whatever.
[00:21:45] But it’s never been that. It’s just I’m genuinely interested in. What they’re coding. How they’re coding it, you know, Hey, when you say it like this, if I did an analogy like this, would that make sense? And they’d be like, yeah, that’s amazing. I’m like, great. I’m gonna tell the execs I’m
[00:22:00] gonna say that you, you know, you did that and that’s amazing.
[00:22:02] And it’s just sort of, establishing that bond. And or that relationship, that sort of trust, trusting relationship so that you can have those conversations that you need to have hard ones and, and collaborative ones. They’re really fun ones. And there’s also really hard ones when you have to give tough feedback, I guess.
[00:22:20] But it’ll be taken because the intent has already been established, you know? But yeah, it’s, it’s interesting. Like I, I say that from, and, you know, I, I’m naturally extroverted social person though I will always, I think I was always sort of welcoming and so I was always. Organizing the lunches like, just like I was in primary school, you know, I’m always organizing something and I’m always introducing people as well because, I feel like people, I guess I do that because I feel like people think that there’s sometimes a bit alone and there’s other people that sort of can connect in different ways.
[00:22:52] I really do feel that even if you are not a leader, even if you could do that, I mean, to be honest, if you did that, you might be an informal leader because you’re
[00:23:00] able to build these relationships around you and earn the trust and influence people positively or have tough conversations, et cetera, then you’ll probably be offered a leadership position.
[00:23:09] But yeah, I, I find, and it’s just a respect thing with no judgment. you know, quite often I’ve had people in my team where, you know, they’ll say, is that good or bad? Is that right or wrong? And I’ll never say, There’s good or bad, or right or wrong, it’s just what you think. Like what, what do you think?
[00:23:25] What, where do you wanna be? And, and you only can, you know, sort of compare yourself to what, where you wanna be in, in your standards. There’s no right or wrong from me or, or good or bad. My only thing is about people. Good thing is I enjoy people. I enjoy talking to a lot of people. and, and interestingly as well, I guess because I’m such a talker and a fast talker at that, and en energizer, I’ve really tried to focus on.
[00:23:48] You know, the active listening part because I know I can talk a hundred miles an hour and you know, you know, if you want me to talk forever about sports, I can do that. But, really it’s about really listening to the other person, not
[00:24:00] just the words, but how they’re. How, you know, their, their, their actions and how their expressions and, and all that kind of stuff and, and observing them, in other situations.
[00:24:11] and, and that’s how I’ve been able to sort of pick up all that, you know, that person, that person was either defensive of those things or like that sparked an energy in them and, in a safe way, especially in a leadership role. Actually seek the diverse opinions of people in that safe way because extroverts, you know, they’ll dominate as I’m maybe dominating right now.
[00:24:31] They’ll dominate the conversation, but you need to make sure there’s equal safe space in the channel that they prefer, or other people prefer, sorry, that’s not an extroverted type person. and, and it might be visual, it might be verbal, it might written, there’s so many different ways to be diverse, I guess.
[00:24:45] But really observing that in whatever team you are in, You’ll get the best of everyone and they’ll be the best of themselves because you’ve worked out how they, you know, what naturally, uh, what natural strengths they have. Or if you push a
[00:25:00] little bit, push a little, a few buttons, you know, this whole new other, opportunities, uh, can come out that they may not have seen themselves as well.
[00:25:09] Chris Hudson: I mean, it, it can be an incredibly powerful force for change and for momentum when, when that happens, because you’re obviously taking everyone’s views and agendas on board and what they really value deep down, and then you’re applying that to how collectively, you know, that can be applied within a business context as well.
[00:25:27] I’m wondering as well, You mentioned two words there, which I think are interesting. Mm-hmm. Uh, one is around judgment. Mm-hmm. and one is around respect or disrespect. Mm-hmm. And I’m wondering, you know, if you are, if you’re going through that exercise and you’re actually, you know, you’re taking the time out to really, actively listen to, to a leader and what they’re saying, where they wanna go, or somebody in your team, but you come across something that’s perhaps not what you were expecting, uh, and you find it.
[00:25:55] A little bit disrespectful, or if you find that, that your, you know, your,
[00:26:00] your approach to something is being judged in one way or another. How do you, how do you respond in that situation? Because I’m sure that doesn’t happen a lot of the time, but, but if it does, then, you know, do you find it confrontational?
[00:26:12] What’s, what’s your response there?
[00:26:14] Sam Yee: I, I mean, I wouldn’t say it’s confrontational. I mean, obviously it, it, it doesn’t, you know, if you, in that kind of experience, I would say it still comes down to the ability to be able to give feedback to that person or, or, or who, whoever’s, I guess driving that experience for you.
[00:26:31] And I’ve al, I mean, I think a lot of people. Are scared of that situation and we’ll just look to avoid it and maybe just leave that team, or leave that boss or leave that company and, and not deal with that. I, I’m not that type of person. I like to know that I’ve exhausted all options and give it a chance.
[00:26:46] ’cause again, it’s, it’s a people thing, right? So, You know, if I’ve ever felt disrespected, I guess I, I would’ve, I will have that one-on-one conversation, but I will prepare like hell for it as well. So that sort of, you know, trying to understand
[00:27:00] where the other person’s is coming from and, and those kind of things.
[00:27:03] But in that conversation, I need to be able to say, when you said or did this, it impacted me like this. I would like to get to here and are you willing to work with me on that? And if it’s not, then, then there’s, that’s a different decision. But hopefully I’ve appealed to the more human side that you know, that, that, you know, and I like to believe in people for the most part, that I believe that they still have positive intent and, you know, pressure can get to you.
[00:27:27] Other things that happening in their lives that allow that to happen or, you know, other, other beliefs and things like that. So I personally want to give it a chance more than one chance as well. Like I really, I’m the type of person that really, I. Make tries to make the most of everything possible, before.
[00:27:43] Sort of setting on another path because I think it’s, I think it’s possible, you know, in all honesty, I will also say as a female working in sports media, you know, other people may have had other male dominated industries as well. There I’ve been disrespected, uh, in very recent times actually, and I just didn’t
[00:28:00] say anything because there are certain battles that I need to pick and choose, and some are just so, That this is not worth, like, it is not gonna achieve anything.
[00:28:10] I’m not going to, you know, change that person’s mind in one day. We need to get on with the work. But there will be ones where, yeah, I need to say something ’cause it’s, it’s too misaligned with my values. I’m not saying that, you know, other, other, other little experiences are not aligned with my values.
[00:28:23] But, you know, if I reacted to every single one as a female of what happens to me, I will never be working. I will just continue on. So the good thing is I’m finding some really great male colleagues that. Sort of speak up for me be because, you know, for me it, it’s really quite sad. I’ve been so used to some of that experience that I, I just let it go.
[00:28:43] It doesn’t even bother me anymore. I mean, it does bother me, but I think I’ve been so hard into it that I’m like, yep, let’s let that one go. I don’t need to. Don’t need to consider that, but think what people, well, some people, I guess they, what they don’t see, uh, the, the invisible part is all the work I have to do going
[00:29:00] into meetings knowing that that could happen to me.
[00:29:02] So I have to be thoroughly prepared about the meeting. I really think about the people in that meeting, where they’re coming from, their angle. Maybe they’ll be a bit assertive, maybe disrespectful, maybe they’ll be aggressive, maybe they’re, you know, et cetera, et cetera. and I’ve, I. They don’t see that work, you know, they don’t see the homework that I have to do, to battle that as well as say what I need to say and convince and persuade and protect a team and support a team and try to drive change and facilitate something new and be excellent at my job.
[00:29:31] So the other poet is sometimes you may have evidence, but also another advantage is when you are actually very credible and excellent at your job. And I would say, You know, if I don’t say Pat, pat myself on the back, but I guess I would say a lot of previous roles and, and, and peers and bosses would say that, you know, I certainly overdeliver have high performing teams high.
[00:29:52] You know, I expect high performance. That helps me have that conversation. I. And drive change in that way as well. but that is
[00:30:00] a lot of work to do to prep for of that and do the thing. And I, I, I, yeah, I’m not gonna lie that, that there’s, those kind of challenges have happened over my career, but I would say that as the leadership role evolved, that that influence, that relationships made things much easier.
[00:30:16] It’s so much easier to, navigate those, experiences.
[00:30:22] Chris Hudson: Yeah, so starting out different, different situation obviously to when you can be part of that conversation and almost shoulder to shoulder with some of those other leaders that, you know, potentially you’d encountered that type of person earlier in your career as well.
[00:30:35] But that’s right. But actually being in a leadership position gives you that, that influence and almost the badge to be able to say you actually. Come on, let’s, let’s not do it this
[00:30:44] Sam Yee: way. Yeah, yeah. Well, well also I would say with that though is, you know, I, I didn’t never, like I said, I never saw myself as a leader.
[00:30:50] It actually took someone, uh, I guess some peers to say, I, I had no bond reporting into me. There was no authority. There’s, there’s no title or anything like that, and it’s not supposed to be
[00:31:00] about those things. But, this person said to me, thank you for being a great leader. And I remember saying to her, I’m like, what?
[00:31:05] I’m not a leader. I just. You know, I’ve worked solo, I’m part of this team, and she said, no, people come to you for advice. You influence the group in a positive way, et cetera. And yeah, she’ll described all these things. And then the title. It gives you some credibility, but also for me to be the authentic leader that I wanna be, I, I, it’s almost like, uh, yes for the C-suite that does, and board members and things that, that, that requires that title, but how I actually act as a leader, it just generally in the team.
[00:31:37] I’m trying to almost do it as if I didn’t have the title because I, it’s, I, I don’t want them to do things because of fear of my title and that level, you know, that authority and, you know, that’s what i’s supposed to do. It’s more, do you know what if I empower you guys as, or you guys and girls I should say, or, and, and transgender?
[00:31:53] as much as possible, I can make myself redundant because the best, the best compliment is that someone takes my
[00:32:00] role and. Everyone’s moving up and everyone’s doing great things, and, and I don’t need to be there anymore.
[00:32:05] Chris Hudson: And I mean, that’s incredibly powerful. I mean, the, there’s so much, so much in that point, just, just in and around.
[00:32:13] It’s, I suppose it’s the perfect, the perfect storm in a way. You know, your own motivation, your belief in authenticity, and the fact that you’ve worked in some of these environments that’s come together and you’ve been able to, you know, to be part of those situations. A lot of people would’ve backed down and.
[00:32:29] In terms of your own resilience and strength, what’s driving
[00:32:33] Sam Yee: that? Good question. I think earlier on, I love sports so much that that dream, that dream will never die. So I think in my mind, I. In my mind, I basically said to myself, I wanna work in sports, uh, because I figure I’m gonna have to work a decent chunk of my life.
[00:32:50] And if I work in sports, I’m gonna have a great life. It’s gonna be, you know, I’m gonna enjoy work, which I have. But at the same time, it’s sort of now that I
[00:33:00] can reflect back, I, I sort of had this sort of tunnel vision of like, working in sports. It’s gonna be great, it’s gonna be great. but then what I realised is all the, all the doors in my face, I guess, and, and all of the, like, you know, really trying to.
[00:33:12] Be patient and play the long game. That is something that I learned a bit later and that I was comfortable with. I think I was really impatient as a younger person going, you know, why can’t we do this? Why aren’t we doing this? You know, I saw things very black and white and as soon as I realised there was grey, the whole world opened and I realised there’s like quick wins.
[00:33:31] There’s some long winds, you’re gonna lose some, lose some battles, but, but you know, at the end of the day, it’s not life or death. So it’s just. It’s work and it’s challenging and it’s fulfilling. And you know, I realised actually in my last five roles or so, I, I was actually headhunted for new roles. I, I, I, you know, it, it was kind of strange to me ’cause in my early part of the career, I, I was the type of person to have a job alert on every single sports job in Australia.
[00:33:56] Senior and junior from when I was 20 years old because I was, I, I want to make sure that I had the skills for the future, skills for now, make sure I’m aware of all the opportunities, which might save for some obsession and analyticals. But anyway, it worked for me. But then it, yeah, like I said, in the last five, uh, five roles, I kept going because clearly there was a gap to be filled.
[00:34:17] you know, clearly these organisations were ask, you know, they couldn’t quite think of the role ’cause it wasn’t really a traditional role. It was more like, we have these big transformational goals we’re trying to do for our, for our business. and you have the capabilities and the mindset to craft a role around you to, you know, sort of set that emotion.
[00:34:35] and so, Part of it was, you know, I think generally in self-reflection, I, I, now, I’m on a career break right now that, I realise that I’m a high, high achiever. I used to, because I didn’t think I was a very good academic student or, or anything like that. I used, that’s what I used to associate with high achieving.
[00:34:50] But I do, I realise that I. I do set myself big goals, work-wise, person wise, you know, and I, you know, I’m okay with failure. I just, but I wanna strive for big things and do
[00:35:00] really well, you know, carry the weight of the responsibility to try and bring everything that I’ve got to to do that. So, yeah. It’s interesting that, uh, the resilience also comes from just really believing in what you think is right as well.
[00:35:12] It’s, you know, uh, I. Whether it was, you know, leadership or, what the really, what the big, you know, what the big vision is? Like, you know, I, I maybe naively, but I’ve joined, uh, let’s say sports teams, I guess, or digital product teams in sports and media, really believing in what they’re trying to do.
[00:35:32] Because I’m a sports fan, I want these amazing experiences and. You know, let’s truth be told, I’ve got 50 sports apps on my phone and they’re terrible. Like we, we could do so much better. I wanna, I even for people that don’t like sport, I would love them to just even get one bit of joy that I get from sports and they’re probably not getting it from the digital products out there at, at the moment.
[00:35:51] So that always spurred me on because even though, you know, you don’t wanna be biased as, as the customer persona type person, but. I really want this for other
[00:36:00] people as well, or even as a new way to get, you know, kids involved or, or, you know, other way, you know, I love basketball, I love tennis. Oh, we both love tennis actually.
[00:36:08] But I would love other people just to even experiment a little bit in there. and so that’s what sort of kept me going in it from a more personal passion point of view. And then, like I said, it’s sort of the high achieving thing. Like when I start something big, I really wanna try and finish it or, or, you know, have progress and, and that kind of stuff with loads of.
[00:36:26] There’s loads of failures and things that don’t work out, you know, along the way, but that, that’s supposed to be part of the journey. So that that’s okay. Yeah. It’s just sort of really wanting, just really wanting the outcome. And that’s all that’s, you know, when I come into new roles, I go, what, what is the big dream here?
[00:36:41] And I go, yep, let’s go for that. And we might never get there. That’s okay. It’s more the journey to get there, but as long, uh, as we all believe in that actual, like a dream that we’re trying to get to, and, and I’ll, you know, I’ll be all right with that. Then you’ve
[00:36:55] Chris Hudson: got the energy to carry over from everyone else along the way, along the journey.
[00:36:59] Sam Yee: That, that’s true.
[00:37:00] That that is also an advantage. yeah. I don’t, I don’t go slow, that’s for sure. and also, you know, I’m also quick to, you know, that’s part of the thing. It’s like quick to give it a go. If it doesn’t work, it’s okay. Moving on, moving on. Like, uh, no, no problems there. It’s, it’s better to try and learn and fail than not.
[00:37:18] Do anything at all In, in my view. and also it’s also about efficiency. Like actually, I remember when we met, like, uh, in an agency in London, I, to me, I was just trying to improve systems. ’cause I’m like, this is a complete waste of time or there’s repetition here. I was just trying to optimise stuff so we can get to good juicy stuff and then then more stuff happens and I do it again.
[00:37:36] So sometimes that, that’s what I think about when I see a team and I go, okay, let’s carve off that we’re spending too much time there. Like, near enough is good enough. When I was younger, I probably used to say I was a perfectionist or something and I wanted every, everything’s black and white, et cetera.
[00:37:50] And I was like, no, no, don’t need any of that. Now. It’s just grey, grey, grey is the best colour in a weird way. it, it’s murky, but more things come out of that, the grey.
[00:38:00] which is really strange actually for me. ’cause I was very extreme left brained and you know, here I am now doing, I, I don’t know, as soon as the people stuff sort of came in it, it moved my dial.
[00:38:10] And you know, now I’ve got sort of, More, more things to tap into, I guess to, and the far more opportunity than that sort of sort of quite, you know, black and white approach. But yes, the energy does help, but also just carving out time for other people to say, you know, you don’t need to see that to a hundred percent you can, if you just go to 90%, that’s near enough, good enough.
[00:38:30] We are clear on the outcomes there. That gives us a 10% to do this little thing, just to try it a little bit. And then, you know, you sort of balance it out there. So it sort of started out with efficiency and. Improvements because I used to say to people, I do not wanna ever do the same thing twice.
[00:38:47] Like, that is stupid. So, so find a better way. And even if, if that, that was me or find a new way to make things faster, I used to do that, a lot in the research thing. Uh, sharing information systems and making like, you know, you can imagine lots of different silos. Siloed teams collecting all this information, they’re not sharing it with each other.
[00:39:07] And I’m like, that’s, that’s crazy. Like that means everyone’s doing it 15 times over. ’cause it, it’s not one sort of distributed insights or analytics or something like that. So, it started off like that, but then yeah, it just, it actually. It then became sort of maybe like an efficiency problem to fix, and then it more became like, here’s this strategic big vision that we have, which is a really big challenge to sort of meet.
[00:39:32] And then how do we approach that? And it’s sort of the same. I’m like, okay, well we’ll enhance here. We’ll optimize here. We’ll do something new here. We’ll cut that fat there then. And then. You know, hopefully, yeah, use the energy to, to get people to be excited to either own that and not be scared to contribute to that.
[00:39:48] Be happy that they’re not doing repetitive work, unless, of course they, you know, there are some roles that are good for that and some people enjoy that and that’s good too, each to their own. But yeah, it’s sort of assessing that situation
[00:39:58] Chris Hudson: because you were talking about a lot about sport
[00:40:00] and I was thinking about that just as you were describing what you know in your answer, because sport can be incredibly repetitive, but usually there’s some incremental.
[00:40:10] Process or gain or like a, you know, shot or this or that, you know, it feels like you are doing the same over of again, but you’re actually learning from doing it over and again, and you are applying that to a new version of what that could become. Yeah. Yeah. It’s in your practice, so, so yeah, it’s not like, Everything is repetitive forevermore, because if you did stay still, then you’d never get any better.
[00:40:33] I mean, like Andy Murray, not any of the tennis players, you know?
[00:40:35] Sam Yee: That’s right. Exactly, exactly. Someone will come up with a, you know, some new stroke and they’ll be named after. It’ll be named after them or something. A new way to a new type of serve or something. And you know, who knows? They get grand slams out of it or something.
[00:40:49] Chris Hudson: That’s it. You’re a sport lover sport, not, what, you know what? What is the sport that business can learn from the most? If I could ask that question. It’s a bit of a big one,
[00:40:58] Sam Yee: but wacky. That’s a big one.
[00:41:00] I, I will say though, uh, the analogy in terms of product management though, uh, which I found very useful when I was exploring definitions and interpretations of product management, of which, by the way, I don’t think there’s just one, but I really liked the, uh, N F L uh, quarterback analogy, which was, Because I, I related it to the product manager where, you are trying, you’re trying to win a game and you know you’ve got a coach that actually probably has some authority and you’ve got all the different, members of the team in different positions and, and you as the quarterback you are, you don’t have any formal authority, you’ve.
[00:41:36] Basically got to use your influence and your relationships with all these people to figure out whatever tactics you gotta do to win the game. And I really like that because yeah, that it’s, it’s the thing about, like I said before, the not the formal authority type situation. And I guess if, I guess if I extend that to a business, if, if the, you know, leaders and owners of a business sort of truly let the quarterbacks of the team and the coaches and
[00:42:00] people to do the roles, with freedom and safety, then they will probably win the game for you.
[00:42:05] Like, they’ll figure out new ways to do it. And, and they all have, they all have accountability, but the way that they collaborate with each other and think, you know, think of things like, actually it reminds me of one of those N F L movies, uh, I can’t quite think of it, but, you know, they come up with some crazy play and, and, you know, and wins them the game.
[00:42:22] It’s that kind of thing. Like, who’s coming up with that and how did, how did that even enter their mind or, And, and it required, a bit of, you know, banter between one person and another person to come up with that play. And then it takes someone to, you know, execute it or whatever. So, yeah, that’s the one that comes to mind.
[00:42:38] I, I wanna think about the one, ’cause I do like that question. Actually. You’ll probably find me doing it for like 20 sports, uh, next time we chat. But
[00:42:47] Chris Hudson: no, all good. You answered it really well. You only had to think about it for a split second, then you were straight in.
[00:42:53] Sam Yee: Well, you know, I think about those things a lot.
[00:42:56] Chris Hudson: It’s an analogy that can probably stretch across a number of sports, uh, and people have
[00:43:00] done that, obviously. Yeah. but yeah. But yeah, really good. I think, uh, yeah, a little of it is to do with mindset, isn’t it? And you’ve talked a little bit about. People being fixed or rational over rationalizing. Uh, sometimes it’s about growth and seeing opportunities and, and you have to kind of know when to flip between one and the other.
[00:43:18] Mm-hmm. A lot of people prefer to talk about growth mindset because it’s, you know, it’s more aspirational and you end up. Thinking more freely and, and in a more visionary capacity. But there’s a role for fixed mindset too. So what’s your take on those two
[00:43:32] Sam Yee: things? Yeah, I mean it’s, uh, again, uh, I think I had a conversation with, you know, I’m always out meeting people and, uh, I hadn’t heard of the concept of growth mindset.
[00:43:42] And she, she was saying to me, you have a growth mindset. I’m like, I do. I’m like, what does that mean? because I guess I was getting, you know, frustrated with, uh, maybe it wasn’t, not necessarily doing the same things, but, you know, just, just not moving fast enough and, and not try trying different things.
[00:43:56] It, it’s interesting ’cause most of the roles I’ve been in have, have been,
[00:44:00] you know, in roles that they’re trying to transform and, and. Do some big things, I guess. So I don’t think you can do that without a growth mindset as you’re trying to make such big shifts and big change. I think there’s certain industries and certain roles where you do need to have the fixed mindset or you know, when you are, when you’re not in a business position to be able to, like you’re actually in a defensive position and you’ve just gotta protect whatever.
[00:44:21] You’ve gotta protect and do what you’ve gotta do. And sometimes I used to say that to some, you know, there are some things that you don’t like to do at work, but this is not, you know, you get. Paid to do this thing and I would just be transparent with the team. I know that we don’t want to do this. I know that this is like the most unfulfilling part.
[00:44:36] I’m gonna help the team as well, but 10% of our time we have to do this crappy thing because we, we’ll never be in position to be able to do the growth stuff if we don’t, do this. And we’re gonna have to, you know, protect that part. but you know, what I would also say is to sort of go, how do we prevent being in that position again so that we don’t have to be sort of, you know, drawn back into that stuff.
[00:44:55] But sometimes you, you just gotta, you know, that’s when you were talking about the intrapreneur. I mean, there’s just
[00:45:00] commercial business things and legality and regulation, things that you need to. Be aware of like you got, that’s the environment that you operate, so you can’t ignore that. I’ve always found it also an advantage to be, you know, I think my dad’s an accountant.
[00:45:12] My mom went to invest, so it’s sort of like I got the commercial things in me. There’s a commercial reality, right? It’s so we’re not just, if we’re all doing it for our dreams, then we wouldn’t be working for a company. We’d be doing something else. So, yeah, I feel like it, it, it does have its, time and place, certain business situations, but you know, it, and it depends the type of person you are, by the way.
[00:45:32] Like, you know, maybe, I. I wouldn’t even say government still feel that government needs their, their own innovation growth. But c certain certain people in certain roles may gravitate towards those kind of things. But you know, he, here’s the real, sort of revelation or the insight is if, if peop if you walk into a company and you see unhappy people, they’re like complaining.
[00:45:52] They’re like, oh, we, this problem’s been here for five years. Oh, this is always done this way, you know, then, They’re, they’re unhappy. They’re
[00:46:00] not, they’re not, I wouldn’t say they’re fulfilled, fixed mindset employees. they’re not happy with where they are and what they’re doing. So, you know, it’s sort of like transform or I guess trying to bring in that growth mindset to bring in that little bit of hope, whether it’s 5% to start off with or.
[00:46:16] If it’s been mandated by the big company that, hey, we’ve gotta do this big transformation, then you might have more leeway. ’cause you have the company support to bring in bigger things. But if it’s smaller things, that’s good too. it’s just sort of, yeah, adapting to the, to the, I guess the business priorities and, and the people that you have.
[00:46:34] And also you can have both. You can have some people that prefer to have the. Not, I don’t wanna necessarily always just say fixed mindset, but maybe a more, less, less, a more know, like operational, you know, standard type type role. And they’re really happy to do that. And, and you can make that work. That’s also a good thing.
[00:46:51] Like that’s equally important. There’s some, some people just like to do that stuff and you go, great. Equally valuable member of the team. And then other
[00:47:00] people might be go, I don’t, you know, I’m not like that at all. And they wanna take more, you know. A bigger space over here and you go, great. I, I wanna give that to you to drive that ’cause that’s naturally, in your wheelhouse and, you know, they can learn things from each other as well, like fixed growth mindset or what, what, whatever you are on the continuum.
[00:47:18] because there’s things you can learn from both. And when I talk about respect and no judgment, like I’m not saying, oh, you know, growth mindset is the only way everyone needs to be. You never be fulfilled. Like, it’s not for me to say that for other people. again, it’s just more, Hey, we’re a group of diverse people.
[00:47:34] We’re working together. Mm-hmm. What’s going on with everyone and, and how can I use that? Or how can we utilize that? More individually and together to do what we are trying to do. And we find out it just like, oh, just like the N F L analogies. Everyone has their role and their, you know, team, remember their special teams or defense or whatever it happens to be.
[00:47:55] Anyway, I don’t dunno. Yeah,
[00:47:56] Chris Hudson: enough we we’re not gonna get started on the football conversation
[00:47:59] Sam Yee: for football. I was
[00:48:00] just trying bring it back, you know?
[00:48:04] Chris Hudson: But but yeah, I mean, just in terms of finding out people’s preferences for that. Do you feel it works better one-to-one or in a group? Sometimes there are different assessments. Uh, there are team canvases that get made in workshops and there are bonding experiences here or there away days. You know what, what’s kind of a good formula there, do you think?
[00:48:22] Sam Yee: We’ll, put it this way. I, I love those things because, but that’s, because that’s the type of stuff that I’m interested in. Like, I, I love doing profiling things and you don’t, it’s not. It doesn’t necessarily have to be, it’s not black or white. It’s not a hundred percent true, but I like, it’s like holding a mirror against yourself.
[00:48:38] Right. And I’m just self reflecting. I’m like, oh, that is me. I’m like, oh, I don’t think that’s me. Oh, that is me. And it just helps me understand. Be aware of how, how I think I am. And then I kind of look for feedback and extent. I mean, I don’t act, I don’t seek it out, it just kind of comes to me. But you know, when people sort of comment on what you are good at or, you know, you seem like really nervous about this and that, and I go, yeah, you’re right.
[00:48:58] I wonder why that is. You know, but
[00:49:00] that, that’s me. Personally, I’m, I’m, I’m very much that way, inclined. I mean, a lot of people have never even asked those questions. It’s actually really scary. so certainly I wouldn’t say in a way day, you know, fixes that, that up and are doing, you know, in team environment could be really very embarrassing, scary for a lot of people.
[00:49:16] So I definitely think it’s a one-on-one thing. And I definitely, like I said before, it’s they can, people will only share with me if they, if I’ve earned their trust and they feel safe and they can be vulnerable. And I’m not gonna tell everyone, Hey, that person. You know, they got stuff going on. You know, like, I’m not, that’s not the point.
[00:49:33] The point is to help them understand themselves and how to make use of that, or where they, you know, work on their strengths. Maybe there’s gaps that they would like, you know, maybe they’ll say, uh, you know, quite often, like a more introverted person than myself will go, oh, I, you know, I’m never gonna speak in front of people.
[00:49:48] You don’t have to speak in front of people, but. You can get your message across in different ways. It’s figuring out a way to do that, and that’s great ’cause you don’t want the same old people talking all, all the time in, in the same channels and things like that.
[00:50:00] So yeah, I definitely think it’s a one-on-one thing.
[00:50:01] And I think it’s also just the ownership on yourself. Like if you want bigger and better things for yourself, then you might, you know, need to think about. What you’re gonna do about that. And part of that just starts with you. and especially if you, unless you are, you know, working solo, even if you’re working solo, you’re still working with other people.
[00:50:20] If you’re really trying to influence a team and you’re really trying to get initiative and you’re really, you know, trying to, you know, succeed in that project, the more you can know yourself and the more that you can, sort of recognize. Other people, then you’ll be able to figure out how to have that honest conversation in that safe environment.
[00:50:38] also fun, exciting ones where everyone’s like, Ooh, you know, some creative facilitated, you know, brainstorm or something. Or creative problem solving, like, you know, when it really gets. Exciting, like that Sippa works and that’s good. But I think even more importantly, in a weird way, it’s actually the, the basis is when you need to have the hard conversations and say it without the emotional
[00:51:00] stuff and without, knowing that it’s in a positive intent and with respect, et cetera.
[00:51:05] If you can do that, you’ll get through things so much faster. ’cause what I’ve found is that most of my work, I guess as a leader, is more unpacking. That more emotional intelligence stuff rather than their actual skills and their knowledge set. ’cause that can be learned that way. But you don’t just suddenly learn how to self-reflect on yourself and suddenly learn how to empathize with other people and sort of figure out how you’re gonna connect you to them, in that influential way that takes.
[00:51:32] Time and practice, and I’m still, perhaps, I’m not saying I’m an expert at it, but, but yeah, it, it, that’s an ongoing thing. But I also find that fascinating ’cause I’ve, that’s why I love meeting people.
[00:51:41] Chris Hudson: I think. Yeah. I mean it’s, it works at different levels. Obviously. You’ve got people that work within a smaller group and they might have a close group of trusted peers where some of the things you described might.
[00:51:52] Be openly discussed or be quite comfortable in a way. Um mm-hmm. But then there will be other people that they wouldn’t be comfortable with sharing that information with.
[00:52:00] Obviously you can tell from who goes for coffee with who, and you know, that kind of thing. That’s right. That’s right. What’s going on?
[00:52:05] Mm-hmm. Uh, it suddenly ladders up and obviously, you know, from, from product management point of view, you’re relying on several individual teams often to, to come together. Mm-hmm. You’re facilitating all of that, but then at an organizational level, you’re thinking, well, how do I, how do I make all this work harmoniously?
[00:52:20] How can we enable that? Almost an inclusive design culture. Yeah. How do you think, how do you think it works? Well, sort of through, I guess, the macro all the way down. You know, are there, are there any big. Secrets or big, uh, I guess, initiatives that would, would help in, in establishing an inclusive design culture?
[00:52:38] Sam Yee: You, that is a really interesting question because, you know, again, I don’t wanna give the sort of rose colored glasses view. Mm-hmm. like I said earlier, I feel like sometimes a bit naively, like I really, really believed in some of the. Visions and, and dreams. Uh, some of the teams I’ve joined and, and I don’t know if everyone was really on board because, you know, because they haven’t been as
[00:53:00] transparent, as transparent with me.
[00:53:01] There’s probably some other financial pressures, board pressures, shareholder pressure. You know, there’s, there’s other things. So it, it makes it harder when you don’t know the full picture to, to really get there. But my thing is around accountability, so, You know, I mentioned earlier that I shared my JD with a lot of my own staff, ’cause I just want them to know what I’m on the hook for.
[00:53:22] Mm-hmm. This doesn’t actually happen, but I feel like if you did that at a macro level, like from boards and in every single position, then you’d be able to have that conversation, to make sure that the transparency is there and the alignment is there all the way through. because I think what I’ve experienced is.
[00:53:44] What I think the, the expectations of a certain role is, or what I think they’re trying to achieve is actually different. But that’s not, it’s just not said. And, you know, I’m not saying that it’s gonna be all this peachy keen, you know, dream world, but the more that you can be transparent about what the dream is, what the
[00:54:00] measure of success is, what real outcome look like, And then the roles are accountable to support that or have the conversation.
[00:54:08] If you’re doing things that are not supporting that, then you can see it all the way through. I think in, you know, larger companies, it’s obviously hard. You know, I’ve been in large, organizations, I guess where, you know, I sort of just, Realign my expectations going, you know, for this department or this team, or this project.
[00:54:26] I, I, okay, these are expectations, this is realistic. But I guess as I got, to more senior positions in, in, you’re obviously closer, like you, there’s Yeah. A lot more complexity, which my, my preference is to. Be transparent about all of that complexity so that you are all working to the same problem, not just a a sub part of that problem.
[00:54:48] ’cause then they can understand the certain decisions you have to make, you know why you have to do the crappy stuff or why you have to do X, Y, Z. That way you can be aligned. But it’s very, it’s. Very important that the
[00:55:00] actual, you know, vision and outcomes in the first place were defined. and that, and, and, and if it changes, that’s okay, but make sure that everyone is being communicated to the same way and they interpret that the same way.
[00:55:10] and then again, you’re free and empowered. You should be free and empowered to do what you need to do to get there. Yeah.
[00:55:16] Chris Hudson: Yeah. So it’s not just about the strategy, it’s not just about the vision and the purpose and I guess the big shiny documents and the things that, that are held up or put on the wall or in the lifts.
[00:55:25] That’s right. But it’s, it’s about how you can surface almost the context in which everyone needs to work. Because you are having to show the constraints as well as the, you know, the catalysts, you know, things that people can work with as well. And if people are aware of that, then they’ll know what they’ve got to work with.
[00:55:42] That’s, and then all of a sudden you’ve got that psychological safety because you think, okay, I understand this situation in which I’m operating. Yeah. And I know what the, what the goal is. And then if I know what my boss’s goal is and I, I can translate that to my own, then I’m pretty comfortable. Is that, yeah.
[00:55:57] Is that a fair summation?
[00:55:58] Sam Yee: Yeah, absolutely.
[00:56:00] It’s that transparency. It’s, you know, it’s what you say and do. I mean that actually, that sort of speaks to some authenticity and culture, but what you say and do, I’m expecting decisions that I’m seeing align to the big company vision. Now, if they don’t, then I’m confused, so that’s okay.
[00:56:19] If you. Give the context, as you say, as to why we’ve had to make that decision, why we’ve had to pivot, or why we’re not going ahead with this thing. Because, because when people don’t know, I know that sometimes the people feel like you might need to protect the staff or something, but when they don’t know, it’s just a growing frustration because they don’t, it’s not computing.
[00:56:37] You said we’re gonna do this, but now you’re saying this or, well, you said we’re gonna do this, but we are doing this thing that doesn’t make, doesn’t connect at all to this. So that communication is, Clear of the transparency of that context. Mm-hmm. and then you can work together still to assuming the big dream is still the same one.
[00:56:55] okay. This, you know, if, if it’s that crappy thing that we have to deal with, that’s
[00:57:00] okay. We’re gonna deal with a crappy thing together. Rather than go, oh, why are we doing this? Oh, leadership, dunno what they’re doing, da da. You know, suddenly all this negativity comes up. And, and, and maybe, and maybe that’s really hard, you know, that’s really hard to be vulnerable and, and clear and clear like that.
[00:57:17] Especially if you’re in, you know, quite, you know, big companies that, you know, have press all over them and things like that. But you, if you want the people to, not work harder, what’s the word? Work smarter and come up with innovative solutions faster, uh, and be, and adapt and all that kind of stuff. then when you have the full picture, you can do that.
[00:57:38] Mm-hmm. So that’s what I used to say as well as a. I guess in whatever role I had, I would ask a lot of questions to get the full picture ’cause I wanna know what I’m working with and how fast I can go or what I need to do to to get there. If you only give me a small slice of that, I can only work with the slice.
[00:57:55] And you don’t get the pie. I have no idea what that analogy meant, but, but yeah. I’m only working with a
[00:58:00] slither, but really the, the most that all organizations got out of me was when my boss or someone told me the bigger picture, the mm-hmm. The bigger barriers, I guess, or challenges. And also that helped me, you know, I’m a proactive person, so I, I just go, all right, there’s a bigger problem to solve.
[00:58:15] I’m not looking at my job description. I just think we should actually solve this. And, and, you know, Back to what you’re saying about, you know, people fixed mindsets when they’re like, oh, why Sam coming into our era? I, the way I got around that was I just showed them what the benefits were to them and I didn’t expect anything in return.
[00:58:31] ’cause I actually believed that it was the right thing to do and then sort of, you know, garner the people around to, to make it happen essentially. So that. That’s how that sort of had unfolded in my
[00:58:40] Chris Hudson: career. Yeah, I mean the slice of the pie is a great analogy I think because I’m like you, I need to see the picture and I need to know the facts to know where I stand in relation to that.
[00:58:48] Yeah. Uh, it’s also interesting just thinking about startup and scale up and obviously huge, you know, enterprise level organizations where some people choose to go into a very. You
[00:59:00] know, I guess sheltered role. Mm-hmm. And other people would choose to go into a highly transparent, highly exposed role where they see all of that and influence a lot of that.
[00:59:09] But for a lot of people, that would be overwhelming. And it’s probably probably the reason for why, you know, big organizations, if you’re talking to thousands of people, they have to start introducing all of these. Steps and processes and closed doors, and then all of a sudden, you know, it’s compartmentalized.
[00:59:24] And then you’ve got different departments doing things and obviously there’s, there’s a communication challenge immediately. It’s probably why a lot of startups scale up. You know, they talk about the number of 50 staff and then going up. Yes. Why that’s such a big deal because all of a sudden people are having to work differently and you can’t be exposed to everything because if you did, If you wouldn’t get any work done.
[00:59:43] Sam Yee: Exactly. And, and not saying that, yeah. It’s a easy problem to solve, right? Like, and there’s some things you just can’t share. it, you just gotta sort of make the right decisions that you think you need for the organization. But yeah, that’s exactly why startups are so appealing, right? Because you just gotta, you get to.
[00:01:17] Have a piece of all the different pies. And it’s like, and you know, I actually had a recent, let’s call it a business inquiry. And they sort of said, Oh, so do you do product strategy or more business commercial? And I said, it’s not one or the other. They’re all intertwined. You can’t do a product strategy without knowing the business and commercial.
[00:01:34] and so, yeah, it was interesting. you know, that, that, that person that sort of had that. Had that line of thinking, but yeah, it is, it is hard and which is why it’s hard to, you know, find people aligned with, you know, values and purpose and things because it’s, it’s, it is very difficult to, execute. I can only sort of say, you know, be as transparent as you can with what you can to, to
[00:02:00] allow as much freedom empowerment for, you know, your people to do what you need to do, I would say.
[00:02:05] Chris Hudson: Yeah. And finding the right people, right. That can get behind, get behind you or work with you.
[00:02:11] Sam Yee: And yeah, as you say, well, like also certain champions, as you say, certain type of people want that kind of thing. And other people sort of want them or just tell me, you know, where I fit in and I’ll do that really, really well.
[00:02:22] and I’ve always been the type of person, well, I’m just generally a problem solver, but. Then, you know, that problem is really part of a bigger problem, and part of a bigger problem, and a subset of problems. And next thing you know, we’re in the low key spaghetti world of, you know, timelines of all these problems.
[00:02:37] But, but I find it energizing. Some people might find that overwhelming, and they only want to work on one set of a problem. And you go, great, that person can work on that. Other people like me kind of want to see, you know, these different things, they get their energy in different ways. And again, I say that’s why humans are amazing, because everyone’s really different and motivated by different things.
[00:02:56] And if you, you know, draw that out and, you know, we’re
[00:03:00] all working on different things or, or perfecting or, you know, mastering whatever it is that you’re working on, you have a really good combination to start off with. Yeah,
[00:03:08] Chris Hudson: and I think it’s important for who you put in place and who you choose to work around, because ultimately, within a working environment, you usually have some level of choice as to where you focus your effort, who you spend your most time with.
[00:03:20] And people are often, you know, it’s unconscious bias, but they’re looking for people that can either affirm their their own beliefs and actions, uh, as opposed to challenge them a lot of the time. And that can lead to, you know, that kind of stale environment. Sometimes, people hire people that are very similar to them and skills and profile.
[00:03:38] All of that is happening. It’s not helping diversity and it’s not really. Progressing the business a lot of the time either, but yeah, what’s your take on all
[00:03:47] Sam Yee: of that? You know that when you said that that totally reminded me of a an interview I had and I you know I always used to go to interviews because I want to know my own value and things but I remember someone saying to me You are the most, you are
[00:04:00] the loudest, most extroverted social research insights person I’ve ever met.
[00:04:05] And I knew I wasn’t the typical profile. And I don’t know, you know, what they wanted or not. Well, I actually, I didn’t think I was suited because, It just, it seemed more like a, like a science lab, I would call it. so I didn’t think that I would be as embraced actually. and this, this was like way, way early, but I guess over time I just sort of leaned into my own uniqueness, I guess, and how I approach things and just sold myself on that.
[00:04:31] And you can kind of take it or leave it. Like, you know, I do come with a burst of energy, almost cyclone type, like, you know, and if that’s what you need and then, you know, that that’s me. I also. I’m the type of person, like I said, energized by people. So, you know, I’d sort of make a point of that, but I guess even just what we’ve talked about today, I would just literally describe how I approach situations, how I approach people.
[00:04:55] You know, there are some common themes and there’s some things that, you know, just. Sort of try something new. And
[00:05:00] I, I definitely, because I would consider myself a generalist. I never, I was started out in marketing and then I, you know, I didn’t really go into agency account management too far. I didn’t become a data scientist, but I dealt with analytics.
[00:05:11] I didn’t become. Yeah, one particular thing. I wasn’t like, I’m not qualified as a researcher, but no enough, but I wouldn’t do a research role. So with all those things, it’s sort of more, yeah, sort of like, I’m a, I’m a generalist. And this is how I, this is how I approach things. The adaptability and flexibility I have can be a strength for.
[00:05:32] a company or position, or if you’re looking for a more fixed role that needs this and that, then that’s fine. But I guess I used to say, look, I’ll pick up anything. I’m very curious and I like to learn stuff. So if I don’t know something, this is how I’d attack it. And this is how I’ve done it before.
[00:05:47] And that’s how I became a journalist in little different things. but I do find that that is quite a strength these days. Maybe that’s, you know, the roles that I’ve had where. You know, because I’ve got experts around me in my team. I’ve got designers, I’ve got developers, I’ve got UX
[00:06:00] researchers, I’ve got, you know, loads of people.
[00:06:03] I don’t need to know those things. I just need to know how to get the best out of the people, and collaborate with each other to get the best outcomes, uh, and be very clear on the, on what those are. Yeah. So, and I definitely felt, I remember when I joined one organization and I, I said to them, I walked in and I said to them, I.
[00:06:22] I have to be this, like I have to be my energetic social self to get the best out of me. I feel like what I’m observing in the culture is it’s very flat and very quiet and I don’t want to be this loud mouth person that’s actually going to piss people off. Maybe I’m not the right fit, but actually they hide me anyway.
[00:06:39] So I think they wanted the energy. So it’s like, okay, I’m bringing it. so yeah, it’s very interesting. And I think again, it’s, when, well, what I expect when people interview me or, or approach me, I guess. Is maybe they are looking for something different because what, what the cookie cutter thing hasn’t worked out and then needing someone with a bit
[00:07:00] of spark and a little bit of adaptability and flexibility.
[00:07:02] Look at, you know, this is what I do. I go in, I look at what’s there and then I look at what we can improve and optimize. And then I look at, you know. The people and where they want to go and use that. And I just do that in every job basically, probably, probably as a consultant as well, do exactly the same thing.
[00:07:19] And actually it’s an enjoyable process and journey. Like I said, you, you get, you get some wins and you don’t see it all, but you know, it’s the joy of working with people. Really.
[00:07:28] Chris Hudson: I mean, the thing that I love is that you just put yourself out there, right? You’re, you’re in the middle. You’re walking into the middle of.
[00:07:35] You know, you’re pretty much in that campfire position where everyone’s just around you and you’re engaging them in one way and you’re, you know, you’re, you’re obviously understanding them. You’re working with what’s there. You don’t always know walking into an organization, uh, particularly as a new, new employee, what you’re going to get.
[00:07:52] Until you do that, but you’re just walking straight in, straight in there and doing it, which is great.
[00:07:56] Sam Yee: First things first, get in there, get to know the people, get
[00:08:00] the vibe, you know, how they’re feeling about things, you know, things that happened in the past, what they were hoping, what they expect from me, you know, and then at some point in that first month, I’ll share my JD and I go, well, this is what they told me, but actually after talking to everyone, I’m actually going to go back to them and.
[00:08:15] Maybe get them to change it a bit. And then that, a lot of that often surprises people. They’re like, what? Like after just chatting to us and I’m like, yes, it’s very important what the company thought they were hiring or what they needed. Uh, I have made my own observations and talk to the people that count, not that they don’t count, but as in more people that, you know, that probably weren’t included in that process to really refine what we really need to do.
[00:08:39] Now I’ve had, now I’m more informed. So. and I want my, I don’t know, performance expectations, et cetera, to be very clear. you know, back to whoever, you know, I’m reporting to back to the company and to the team. So, yeah, it’s, uh, but you know, that’s what I enjoy. Right. So I just want to know what everyone’s up to.
[00:08:59] How did you
[00:09:00] get here? What’s your story? Oh, it’s great.
[00:09:04] Chris Hudson: Well, that’s so good. I mean, maybe we can wrap up there. But before we do, uh, you know, for entrepreneurs like yourself, we touched on a number of themes today. But, but what would be one thing that you’d say to other entrepreneurs that are trying to make waves, make change, or just, you know, feel comfortable in their roles?
[00:09:24] Sam Yee: Hmm. One single piece of advice. sorry, say again, or three,
[00:09:29] Chris Hudson: one or three or five, pick a number. I don’t mind.
[00:09:32] Sam Yee: Okay. My, my thing is, master the art of persuasion. Uh, and I mean that in the positive way. And I’m kind of cheating because when I say that it’s kind of like a catch all for a lot of things, because the art of persuasion is.
[00:09:47] Well, in my mind anyway, it’s a lot of, like I said, knowing self awareness of yourself, trying to empathize, with the other people you’re trying to convince to, you know, do whatever you’re doing as an
[00:10:00] entrepreneur. You know, so there’s lots of the empathy, finding common goals, getting your facts and your evidence and your credibility sorted, and also having the detail of the how.
[00:10:08] All of that has to be wrapped up in this art of persuasion that, by the way, no one person is the same. So it turns out, you know, I literally used to. When I first was exposed to this, I’ll give her a shout, by the way. a lady called Michelle Bowden, I did this at Channel 7. It was really amazing.
[00:10:24] Then I learned a lot of these things from her. But, you know, when I first started out practicing the art of persuasion, once I got past the manipulation, I, You know, I literally wrote in my notebook, uh, these things, what I wanted, the message I was trying to say and, you know, what I thought about. and sometimes I had the notes in front of me, but goddamn, it actually worked.
[00:10:43] Like it, it, it works in emails and works in conversations, works in presentations. the more. You master that, awareness, I guess you’ll find it’s actually an easier way to convince. cause it’s a people thing, it’s a credibility thing, and then
[00:11:00] it’s the actual solution. So I was just saying, yeah, master the art of persuasion, uh, is, would be my advice for budding entrepreneurs.
[00:11:09] Chris Hudson: Brilliant. All right. Thanks so much, Sam. And where does all of this leave you? I mean, you’ve, you’ve talked about some of the companies you’ve worked in, uh, what, what do you want to do now or next, or do you want to share that?
[00:11:19] Sam Yee: Yeah, so I’m actually on my first ever career break after 20 plus or so years, which is actually really scary and it’s a different mindset after being sort of, you know, A more corporate, and startup, we’re to start off eight months as well.
[00:11:33] but, but it is weird not to have like a full time role when you’ve been doing that for 20 plus years and having structure. So it’s, I mean, that, uh, time where I’m, I guess, a lot of self reflection, uh, exploring whole new bunch of opportunities. And as you can imagine, my energy is kind of gotten the better of me and I went kind of bit crazy and all the things I could do, but I’m now starting to.
[00:11:55] Uh, get a bit closer about what I’d like to do. And it’d probably be a lot more in consulting and
[00:12:00] products. lots of career coaching and mentoring as well. I’ve established a network in that way, maybe a bit of business coaching as well. so there’s quite a few things I’m exploring, and love to hear from anyone.
[00:12:12] They want to reach out on LinkedIn and things and talk some more, but yeah, I think, out of all of these experiences, I think I’d still actually bring a lot of that approach and miles and authenticity and energy to them. But I guess I’m looking for. I guess the flexibility in consulting sort of gives you, you know, sort of that, that transparency is really clear of, of what you’re, trying to do.
[00:12:35] And, you know, I’d still love to energize and motivate teams if I’m consulting in places as well. but yeah, it’s sort of trying to, find something new. and that’s where I’m at. So I’m excited by that.
[00:12:48] Chris Hudson: Very excited. Well, we can’t wait to hear about what happens next in the ongoing chapters of SAMU, but it’s been, yeah, an absolute pleasure having you on the show and really appreciate the chat today.
[00:12:58] Thanks so much, Sam.
[00:13:00]
[00:13:00] Sam Yee: Fantastic. Thank you very much.
[00:13:02] Chris Hudson: Okay. So that’s it for this episode. If you’re hearing this message, you’ve listened all the way to the end. So thank you very much. We hope you enjoyed the show. We’d love to hear your feedback. So please leave us a review and share this episode with your friends, team members, leaders, if you think it’ll make a difference.
[00:13:16] After all, we’re trying to help you, the entrepreneurs, kick more goals within your organizations. If you have any questions about the things we’ve covered in the show, please email me directly at chris at companyroad. co. I answer all messages, so please don’t hesitate to reach out. And to hear about the latest episodes and updates, please head to companyroad.
[00:13:33] co to subscribe. Tune in next Wednesday for another new episode.
technology developers who would typically are probably more introverted than myself. Now, you would think that I, you know, they just wanna stay away from me. Like, oh my gosh, it’s too loud or whatever.
[00:21:45] But it’s never been that. It’s just I’m genuinely interested in. What they’re coding. How they’re coding it, you know, Hey, when you say it like this, if I did an analogy like this, would that make sense? And they’d be like, yeah, that’s amazing. I’m like, great. I’m gonna tell the execs I’m
[00:22:00] gonna say that you, you know, you did that and that’s amazing.
[00:22:02] And it’s just sort of, establishing that bond. And or that relationship, that sort of trust, trusting relationship so that you can have those conversations that you need to have hard ones and, and collaborative ones. They’re really fun ones. And there’s also really hard ones when you have to give tough feedback, I guess.
[00:22:20] But it’ll be taken because the intent has already been established, you know? But yeah, it’s, it’s interesting. Like I, I say that from, and, you know, I, I’m naturally extroverted social person though I will always, I think I was always sort of welcoming and so I was always. Organising the lunches like, just like I was in primary school, you know, I’m always organising something and I’m always introducing people as well because, I feel like people, I guess I do that because I feel like people think that there’s sometimes a bit alone and there’s other people that sort of can connect in different ways.
[00:22:52] I really do feel that even if you are not a leader, even if you could do that, I mean, to be honest, if you did that, you might be an informal leader because you’re
[00:23:00] able to build these relationships around you and earn the trust and influence people positively or have tough conversations, et cetera, then you’ll probably be offered a leadership position.
[00:23:09] But yeah, I, I find, and it’s just a respect thing with no judgment. You know, quite often I’ve had people in my team where, you know, they’ll say, is that good or bad? Is that right or wrong? And I’ll never say, There’s good or bad, or right or wrong, it’s just what you think. Like what, what do you think?
[00:23:25] What, where do you wanna be? And, and you only can, you know, sort of compare yourself to what, where you wanna be in, in your standards. There’s no right or wrong from me or, or good or bad. My only thing is about people. Good thing is I enjoy people. I enjoy talking to a lot of people. And interestingly as well, I guess because I’m such a talker and a fast talker at that, and en energiser, I’ve really tried to focus on.
[00:23:48] You know, the active listening part because I know I can talk a hundred miles an hour and you know, you know, if you want me to talk forever about sports, I can do that. But, really it’s about really listening to the other person, not
[00:24:00] just the words, but how they’re. How, you know, their, their, their actions and how their expressions and, and all that kind of stuff and, and observing them, in other situations.
[00:24:11] and, and that’s how I’ve been able to sort of pick up all that, you know, that person, that person was either defensive of those things or like that sparked an energy in them and, in a safe way, especially in a leadership role. Actually seek the diverse opinions of people in that safe way because extroverts, you know, they’ll dominate as I’m maybe dominating right now.
[00:24:31] They’ll dominate the conversation, but you need to make sure there’s equal safe space in the channel that they prefer, or other people prefer, sorry, that’s not an extroverted type person. And it might be visual, it might be verbal, it might written, there’s so many different ways to be diverse, I guess.
[00:24:45] But really observing that in whatever team you are in, You’ll get the best of everyone and they’ll be the best of themselves because you’ve worked out how they, you know, what naturally, uh, what natural strengths they have. Or if you push a
[00:25:00] little bit, push a little, a few buttons, you know, this whole new other, opportunities, uh, can come out that they may not have seen themselves as well.
[00:25:09] Chris Hudson: I mean, it, it can be an incredibly powerful force for change and for momentum when, when that happens, because you’re obviously taking everyone’s views and agendas on board and what they really value deep down, and then you’re applying that to how collectively, you know, that can be applied within a business context as well.
[00:25:27] I’m wondering as well, You mentioned two words there, which I think are interesting. Mm-hmm. Uh, one is around judgment. Mm-hmm. and one is around respect or disrespect. Mm-hmm. And I’m wondering, you know, if you are, if you’re going through that exercise and you’re actually, you know, you’re taking the time out to really, actively listen to, to a leader and what they’re saying, where they wanna go, or somebody in your team, but you come across something that’s perhaps not what you were expecting, uh, and you find it.
[00:25:55] A little bit disrespectful, or if you find that, that your, you know, your,
[00:26:00] your approach to something is being judged in one way or another. How do you, how do you respond in that situation? Because I’m sure that doesn’t happen a lot of the time, but, but if it does, then, you know, do you find it confrontational?
[00:26:12] What’s, what’s your response there?
[00:26:14] Sam Yee: I, I mean, I wouldn’t say it’s confrontational. I mean, obviously it, it, it doesn’t, you know, if you, in that kind of experience, I would say it still comes down to the ability to be able to give feedback to that person or, or, or who, whoever’s, I guess driving that experience for you.
[00:26:31] And I’ve al, I mean, I think a lot of people. Are scared of that situation and we’ll just look to avoid it and maybe just leave that team, or leave that boss or leave that company and, and not deal with that. I, I’m not that type of person. I like to know that I’ve exhausted all options and give it a chance.
[00:26:46] ’cause again, it’s, it’s a people thing, right? So, You know, if I’ve ever felt disrespected, I guess I, I would’ve, I will have that one-on-one conversation, but I will prepare like hell for it as well. So that sort of, you know, trying to understand
[00:27:00] where the other person’s is coming from and, and those kind of things.
[00:27:03] But in that conversation, I need to be able to say, when you said or did this, it impacted me like this. I would like to get to here and are you willing to work with me on that? And if it’s not, then, then there’s, that’s a different decision. But hopefully I’ve appealed to the more human side that you know, that, that, you know, and I like to believe in people for the most part, that I believe that they still have positive intent and, you know, pressure can get to you.
[00:27:27] Other things that happening in their lives that allow that to happen or, you know, other, other beliefs and things like that. So I personally want to give it a chance more than one chance as well. Like I really, I’m the type of person that really, I. Make tries to make the most of everything possibbefore.
[00:27:43] Sort of setting on another path because I think it’s, I think it’s possible, you know, in all honesty, I will also say as a female working in sports media, you know, other people may have had other male dominated industries as well. There I’ve been disrespected, uh, in very recent times actually, and I just didn’t
[00:28:00] say anything because there are certain battles that I need to pick and choose, and some are just so, That this is not worth, like, it is not gonna achieve anything.
[00:28:10] I’m not going to, you know, change that person’s mind in one day. We need to get on with the work. But there will be ones where, yeah, I need to say something ’cause it’s, it’s too misaligned with my values. I’m not saying that, you know, other, other, other little experiences are not aligned with my values.
[00:28:23] But, you know, if I reacted to every single one as a female of what happens to me, I will never be working. I will just continue on. So the good thing is I’m finding some really great male colleagues that. Sort of speak up for me be because, you know, for me it, it’s really quite sad. I’ve been so used to some of that experience that I, I just let it go.
[00:28:43] It doesn’t even bother me anymore. I mean, it does bother me, but I think I’ve been so hard into it that I’m like, yep, let’s let that one go. I don’t need to. Don’t need to consider that, but think what people, well, some people, I guess they, what they don’t see, uh, the, the invisible part is all the work I have to do going
[00:29:00] into meetings knowing that that could happen to me.
[00:29:02] So I have to be thoroughly prepared about the meeting. I really think about the people in that meeting, where they’re coming from, their angle. Maybe they’ll be a bit assertive, maybe disrespectful, maybe they’ll be aggressive, maybe they’re, you know, et cetera, et cetera. and I’ve, I. They don’t see that work, you know, they don’t see the homework that I have to do, to battle that as well as say what I need to say and convince and persuade and protect a team and support a team and try to drive change and facilitate something new and be excellent at my job.
[00:29:31] So the other poet is sometimes you may have evidence, but also another advantage is when you are actually very credible and excellent at your job. And I would say, You know, if I don’t say Pat, pat myself on the back, but I guess I would say a lot of previous roles and, and, and peers and bosses would say that, you know, I certainly overdeliver have high performing teams high.
[00:29:52] You know, I expect high performance. That helps me have that conversation. I. And drive change in that way as well. but that is
[00:30:00] a lot of work to do to prep for of that and do the thing. And I, I, I, yeah, I’m not gonna lie that, that there’s, those kind of challenges have happened over my career, but I would say that as the leadership role evolved, that that influence, that relationships made things much easier.
[00:30:16] It’s so much easier to, navigate those, experiences.
[00:30:22] Chris Hudson: Yeah, so starting out different, different situation obviously to when you can be part of that conversation and almost shoulder to shoulder with some of those other leaders that, you know, potentially you’d encountered that type of person earlier in your career as well.
[00:30:35] But that’s right. But actually being in a leadership position gives you that, that influence and almost the badge to be able to say you actually. Come on, let’s, let’s not do it this
[00:30:44] Sam Yee: way. Yeah, yeah. Well, well also I would say with that though is, you know, I, I didn’t never, like I said, I never saw myself as a leader.
[00:30:50] It actually took someone, uh, I guess some peers to say, I, I had no bond reporting into me. There was no authority. There’s, there’s no title or anything like that, and it’s not supposed to be
[00:31:00] about those things. But, this person said to me, thank you for being a great leader. And I remember saying to her, I’m like, what?
[00:31:05] I’m not a leader. I just. You know, I’ve worked solo, I’m part of this team, and she said, no, people come to you for advice. You influence the group in a positive way, et cetera. And yeah, she’ll described all these things. And then the title. It gives you some credibility, but also for me to be the authentic leader that I wanna be, I, I, it’s almost like, uh, yes for the C-suite that does, and board members and things that, that, that requires that title, but how I actually act as a leader, it just generally in the team.
[00:31:37] I’m trying to almost do it as if I didn’t have the title because I, it’s, I, I don’t want them to do things because of fear of my title and that level, you know, that authority and, you know, that’s what i’s supposed to do. It’s more, do you know what if I empower you guys as, or you guys and girls I should say, or, and, and transgender?
[00:31:53] as much as possible, I can make myself redundant because the best, the best compliment is that someone takes my
[00:32:00] role and. Everyone’s moving up and everyone’s doing great things, and, and I don’t need to be there anymore.
[00:32:05] Chris Hudson: And I mean, that’s incredibly powerful. I mean, the, there’s so much, so much in that point, just, just in and around.
[00:32:13] It’s, I suppose it’s the perfect, the perfect storm in a way. You know, your own motivation, your belief in authenticity, and the fact that you’ve worked in some of these environments that’s come together and you’ve been able to, you know, to be part of those situations. A lot of people would’ve backed down and.
[00:32:29] In terms of your own resilience and strength, what’s driving
[00:32:33] Sam Yee: that? Good question. I think earlier on, I love sports so much that that dream, that dream will never die. So I think in my mind, I. In my mind, I basically said to myself, I wanna work in sports, uh, because I figure I’m gonna have to work a decent chunk of my life.
[00:32:50] And if I work in sports, I’m gonna have a great life. It’s gonna be, you know, I’m gonna enjoy work, which I have. But at the same time, it’s sort of now that I
[00:33:00] can reflect back, I, I sort of had this sort of tunnel vision of like, working in sports. It’s gonna be great, it’s gonna be great. but then what I realised is all the, all the doors in my face, I guess, and, and all of the, like, you know, really trying to.
[00:33:12] Be patient and play the long game. That is something that I learned a bit later and that I was comfortable with. I think I was really impatient as a younger person going, you know, why can’t we do this? Why aren’t we doing this? You know, I saw things very black and white and as soon as I realised there was grey, the whole world opened and I realised there’s like quick wins.
[00:33:31] There’s some long winds, you’re gonna lose some, lose some battles, but, but you know, at the end of the day, it’s not life or death. So it’s just. It’s work and it’s challenging and it’s fulfilling. And you know, I realised actually in my last five roles or so, I, I was actually headhunted for new roles. I, I, I, you know, it, it was kind of strange to me ’cause in my early part of the career, I, I was the type of person to have a job alert on every single sports job in Australia.
[00:33:56] Senior and junior from when I was 20 years old because I
[00:34:00] was, I, I want to make sure that I had the skills for the future, skills for now, make sure I’m aware of all the opportunities, which might save for some obsession and analyticals. But anyway, it worked for me. But then it, yeah, like I said, in the last five, uh, five roles, I kept going because clearly there was a gap to be filled.
[00:34:17] you know, clearly these organisations were ask, you know, they couldn’t quite think of the role ’cause it wasn’t really a traditional role. It was more like, we have these big transformational goals we’re trying to do for our, for our business. and you have the capabilities and the mindset to craft a role around you to, you know, sort of set that emotion.
[00:34:35] and so, Part of it was, you know, I think generally in self-reflection, I, now, I’m on a career break right now that, I realise that I’m a high, high achiever. I used to, because I didn’t think I was a very good academic student or, or anything like that. I used, that’s what I used to associate with high achieving.
[00:34:50] But I do, I realise that I. I do set myself big goals, work-wise, person wise, you know, and I, you know, I’m okay with failure. I just, but I wanna strive for big things and do
[00:35:00] really well, you know, carry the weight of the responsibility to try and bring everything that I’ve got to to do that. So, yeah. It’s interesting that, uh, the resilience also comes from just really believing in what you think is right as well.
[00:35:12] It’s, you know, uh, I. Whether it was, you know, leadership or, what the really, what the big, you know, what the big vision is? Like, you know, I, I maybe naively, but I’ve joined, uh, let’s say sports teams, I guess, or digital product teams in sports and media, really believing in what they’re trying to do.
[00:35:32] Because I’m a sports fan, I want these amazing experiences and. You know, let’s truth be told, I’ve got 50 sports apps on my phone and they’re terrible. Like we, we could do so much better. I wanna, I even for people that don’t like sport, I would love them to just even get one bit of joy that I get from sports and they’re probably not getting it from the digital products out there at, at the moment.
[00:35:51] So that always spurred me on because even though, you know, you don’t wanna be biased as, as the customer persona type person, but. I really want this for other
[00:36:00] people as well, or even as a new way to get, you know, kids involved or, or, you know, other way, you know, I love basketball, I love tennis. Oh, we both love tennis actually.
[00:36:08] But I would love other people just to even experiment a little bit in there. and so that’s what sort of kept me going in it from a more personal passion point of view. And then, like I said, it’s sort of the high achieving thing. Like when I start something big, I really wanna try and finish it or, or, you know, have progress and, and that kind of stuff with loads of.
[00:36:26] There’s loads of failures and things that don’t work out, you know, along the way, but that, that’s supposed to be part of the journey. So that that’s okay. Yeah. It’s just sort of really wanting, just really wanting the outcome. And that’s all that’s, you know, when I come into new roles, I go, what, what is the big dream here?
[00:36:41] And I go, yep, let’s go for that. And we might never get there. That’s okay. It’s more the journey to get there, but as long, uh, as we all believe in that actual, like a dream that we’re trying to get to, and, and I’ll, you know, I’ll be all right with that. Then you’ve
[00:36:55] Chris Hudson: got the energy to carry over from everyone else along the way, along the journey.
[00:36:59] Sam Yee: That, that’s true.
[00:37:00] That that is also an advantage. I don’t, I don’t go slow, that’s for sure. And also, you know, I’m also quick to, you know, that’s part of the thing. It’s like quick to give it a go. If it doesn’t work, it’s okay. Moving on, moving on. Like, uh, no, no problems there. It’s, it’s better to try and learn and fail than not.
[00:37:18] Do anything at all In, in my view. and also it’s also about efficiency. Like actually, I remember when we met, like, uh, in an agency in London, I, to me, I was just trying to improve systems. ’cause I’m like, this is a complete waste of time or there’s repetition here. I was just trying to optimise stuff so we can get to good juicy stuff and then then more stuff happens and I do it again.
[00:37:36] So sometimes that, that’s what I think about when I see a team and I go, okay, let’s carve off that we’re spending too much time there. Like, near enough is good enough. When I was younger, I probably used to say I was a perfectionist or something and I wanted every, everything’s black and white, et cetera.
[00:37:50] And I was like, no, no, don’t need any of that. Now. It’s just grey, grey, grey is the best color in a weird way. it, it’s murky, but more things come out of that, the grey.
[00:38:00] which is really strange actually for me. ’cause I was very extreme left brained and you know, here I am now doing, I, I don’t know, as soon as the people stuff sort of came in it, it moved my dial.
[00:38:10] And you know, now I’ve got sort of, More, more things to tap into, I guess to, and the far more opportunity than that sort of sort of quite, you know, black and white approach. But yes, the energy does help, but also just carving out time for other people to say, you know, you don’t need to see that to a hundred percent you can, if you just go to 90%, that’s near enough, good enough.
[00:38:30] We are clear on the outcomes there. That gives us a 10% to do this little thing, just to try it a little bit. And then, you know, you sort of balance it out there. So it sort of started out with efficiency and. Improvements because I, I, I, I used to say to people, I do not wanna ever do the same thing twice.
[00:38:47] Like, that is stupid. So, so find a better way. And even if, if that, that was me or find a new way to make things faster, I used to do that, a lot in the research thing. Uh, sharing
[00:39:00] information systems and making like, you know, you can imagine lots of different silos. Siloed teams collecting all this information, they’re not sharing it with each other.
[00:39:07] And I’m like, that’s, that’s crazy. Like that means everyone’s doing it 15 times over. ’cause it, it’s not one sort of distributed insights or analytics or something like that. So, it started off like that, but then yeah, it just, it actually. It then became sort of maybe like an efficiency problem to fix, and then it more became like, here’s this strategic big vision that we have, which is a really big challenge to sort of meet.
[00:39:32] And then how do we approach that? And it’s sort of the same. I’m like, okay, well we’ll enhance here. We’ll optimise here. We’ll do something new here. We’ll cut that fat there then. And then. You know, hopefully, yeah, use the energy to, to get people to be excited to either own that and not be scared to contribute to that.
[00:39:48] Be happy that they’re not doing repetitive work, unless, of course they, you know, there are some roles that are good for that and some people enjoy that and that’s good too, each to their own. But yeah, it’s sort of assessing that situation
[00:39:58] Chris Hudson: because you were talking about a lot about sport
[00:40:00] and I was thinking about that just as you were describing what you know in your answer, because sport can be incredibly repetitive, but usually there’s some incremental.
[00:40:10] Process or gain or like a, you know, shot or this or that, you know, it feels like you are doing the same over of again, but you’re actually learning from doing it over and again, and you are applying that to a new version of what that could become. Yeah. Yeah. It’s in your practice, so, so yeah, it’s not like, Everything is repetitive forevermore, because if you did stay still, then you’d never get any better.
[00:40:33] I mean, like Andy Murray, not any of the tennis players, you know?
[00:40:35] Sam Yee: That’s right. Exactly, exactly. Someone will come up with a, you know, some new stroke and they’ll be named after. It’ll be named after them or something. A new way to a new type of serve or something. And you know, who knows? They get grand slams out of it or something.
[00:40:49] Chris Hudson: That’s it. You’re a sport lover sport, not, what, you know what? What is the sport that business can learn from the most? If I could ask that question. It’s a bit of a big one,
[00:40:58] Sam Yee: but wacky. That’s a big one.
[00:41:00] I, I will say though, uh, the analogy in terms of product management though, uh, which I found very useful when I was exploring definitions and interpretations of product management, of which, by the way, I don’t think there’s just one, but I really liked the, uh, N F L uh, quarterback analogy, which was, Because I, I related it to the product manager where, you are trying, you’re trying to win a game and you know you’ve got a coach that actually probably has some authority and you’ve got all the different, members of the team in different positions and, and you as the quarterback you are, you don’t have any formal authority, you’ve.
[00:41:36] Basically got to use your influence and your relationships with all these people to figure out whatever tactics you gotta do to win the game. And I really like that because yeah, that it’s, it’s the thing about, like I said before, the not the formal authority type situation. And I guess if, I guess if I extend that to a business, if, if the, you know, leaders and owners of a business sort of truly let the quarterbacks of the team and the coaches and
[00:42:00] people to do the roles, with freedom and safety, then they will probably win the game for you.
[00:42:05] Like, they’ll figure out new ways to do it. And, and they all have, they all have accountability, but the way that they collaborate with each other and think, you know, think of things like, actually it reminds me of one of those N F L movies, uh, I can’t quite think of it, but, you know, they come up with some crazy play and, and, you know, and wins them the game.
[00:42:22] It’s that kind of thing. Like, who’s coming up with that and how did, how did that even enter their mind or, And, and it required, a bit of, you know, banter between one person and another person to come up with that play. And then it takes someone to, you know, execute it or whatever. So, yeah, that’s the one that comes to mind.
[00:42:38] I, I wanna think about the one, ’cause I do like that question. Actually. You’ll probably find me doing it for like 20 sports, uh, next time we chat. But
[00:42:47] Chris Hudson: no, all good. You answered it really well. You only had to think about it for a split second, then you were straight in.
[00:42:53] Sam Yee: Well, you know, I think about those things a lot.
[00:42:56] Chris Hudson: It’s an analogy that can probably stretch across a number of sports, uh, and people have
[00:43:00] done that, obviously. Yeah. but yeah. But yeah, really good. I think, uh, yeah, a little of it is to do with mindset, isn’t it? And you’ve talked a little bit about. People being fixed or rational over rationalising. Uh, sometimes it’s about growth and seeing opportunities and, and you have to kind of know when to flip between one and the other.
[00:43:18] Mm-hmm. A lot of people prefer to talk about growth mindset because it’s, you know, it’s more aspirational and you end up. Thinking more freely and, and in a more visionary capacity. But there’s a role for fixed mindset too. So what’s your take on those two
[00:43:32] Sam Yee: things? Yeah, I mean it’s, uh, again, uh, I think I had a conversation with, you know, I’m always out meeting people and, uh, I hadn’t heard of the concept of growth mindset.
[00:43:42] And she, she was saying to me, you have a growth mindset. I’m like, I do. I’m like, what does that mean? because I guess I was getting, you know, frustrated with, uh, maybe it wasn’t, not necessarily doing the same things, but, you know, just, just not moving fast enough and, and not try trying different things.
[00:43:56] It, it’s interesting ’cause most of the roles I’ve been in have, have been,
[00:44:00] you know, in roles that they’re trying to transform and, and. Do some big things, I guess. So I don’t think you can do that without a growth mindset as you’re trying to make such big shifts and big change. I think there’s certain industries and certain roles where you do need to have the fixed mindset or you know, when you are, when you’re not in a business position to be able to, like you’re actually in a defensive position and you’ve just gotta protect whatever.
[00:44:21] You’ve gotta protect and do what you’ve gotta do. And sometimes I used to say that to some, you know, there are some things that you don’t like to do at work, but this is not, you know, you get. Paid to do this thing and I would just be transparent with the team. I know that we don’t want to do this. I know that this is like the most unfulfilling part.
[00:44:36] I’m gonna help the team as well, but 10% of our time we have to do this crappy thing because we, we’ll never be in position to be able to do the growth stuff if we don’t, do this. And we’re gonna have to, you know, protect that part. but you know, what I would also say is to sort of go, how do we prevent being in that position again so that we don’t have to be sort of, you know, drawn back into that stuff.
[00:44:55] But sometimes you, you just gotta, you know, that’s when you were talking about the intrapreneur. I mean, there’s just
[00:45:00] commercial business things and legality and regulation, things that you need to. Be aware of like you got, that’s the environment that you operate, so you can’t ignore that. I’ve always found it also an advantage to be, you know, I think my dad’s an accountant.
[00:45:12] My mom went to invest, so it’s sort of like I got the commercial things in me. There’s a commercial reality, right? It’s so we’re not just, if we’re all doing it for our dreams, then we wouldn’t be working for a company. We’d be doing something else. So, yeah, I feel like it, it, it does have its, time and place, certain business situations, but you know, it, and it depends the type of person you are, by the way.
[00:45:32] Like, you know, maybe, I. I wouldn’t even say government still feel that government needs their, their own innovation growth. But c certain certain people in certain roles may gravitate towards those kind of things. But you know, he, here’s the real, sort of revelation or the insight is if, if people if you walk into a company and you see unhappy people, they’re like complaining.
[00:45:52] They’re like, oh, we, this problem’s been here for five years. Oh, this is always done this way, you know, then, They’re, they’re unhappy. They’re
[00:46:00] not, they’re not, I wouldn’t say they’re fulfilled, fixed mindset employees. they’re not happy with where they are and what they’re doing. So, you know, it’s sort of like transform or I guess trying to bring in that growth mindset to bring in that little bit of hope, whether it’s 5% to start off with or.
[00:46:16] If it’s been mandated by the big company that, hey, we’ve gotta do this big transformation, then you might have more leeway. ’cause you have the company support to bring in bigger things. But if it’s smaller things, that’s good too. it’s just sort of, yeah, adapting to the, to the, I guess the business priorities and, and the people that you have.
[00:46:34] And also you can have both. You can have some people that prefer to have the. Not, I don’t wanna necessarily always just say fixed mindset, but maybe a more, less, less, a more know, like operational, you know, standard type type role. And they’re really happy to do that. And, and you can make that work. That’s also a good thing.
[00:46:51] Like that’s equally important. There’s some, some people just like to do that stuff and you go, great. Equally valuable member of the team. And then other
[00:47:00] people might be go, I don’t, you know, I’m not like that at all. And they wanna take more, you know. A bigger space over here and you go, great. I, I wanna give that to you to drive that ’cause that’s naturally, in your wheelhouse and, you know, they can learn things from each other as well, like fixed growth mindset or what, what, whatever you are on the continuum.
[00:47:18] because there’s things you can learn from both. And when I talk about respect and no judgment, like I’m not saying, oh, you know, growth mindset is the only way everyone needs to be. You never be fulfilled. Like, it’s not for me to say that for other people. again, it’s just more, Hey, we’re a group of diverse people.
[00:47:34] We’re working together. Mm-hmm. What’s going on with everyone and, and how can I use that? Or how can we utilise that? More individually and together to do what we are trying to do. And we find out it just like, oh, just like the N F L analogies. Everyone has their role and their, you know, team, remember their special teams or defense or whatever it happens to be.
[00:47:55] Anyway, I don’t dunno. Yeah,
[00:47:56] Chris Hudson: enough we we’re not gonna get started on the football conversation
[00:47:59] Sam Yee: for football. I was
[00:48:00] just trying bring it back, you know?
[00:48:04] Chris Hudson: But but yeah, I mean, just in terms of finding out people’s preferences for that. Do you feel it works better one-to-one or in a group? Sometimes there are different assessments. Uh, there are team canvases that get made in workshops and there are bonding experiences here or there away days. You know what, what’s kind of a good formula there, do you think?
[00:48:22] Sam Yee: We’ll, put it this way. I, I love those things because, but that’s, because that’s the type of stuff that I’m interested in. Like, I, I love doing profiling things and you don’t, it’s not. It doesn’t necessarily have to be, it’s not black or white. It’s not a hundred percent true, but I like, it’s like holding a mirror against yourself.
[00:48:38] Right. And I’m just self reflecting. I’m like, oh, that is me. I’m like, oh, I don’t think that’s me. Oh, that is me. And it just helps me understand. Be aware of how, how I think I am. And then I kind of look for feedback and extent. I mean, I don’t act, I don’t seek it out, it just kind of comes to me. But you know, when people sort of comment on what you are good at or, you know, you seem like really nervous about this and that, and I go, yeah, you’re right.
[00:48:58] I wonder why that is. You know, but
[00:49:00] that, that’s me. Personally, I’m, I’m, I’m very much that way, inclined. I mean, a lot of people have never even asked those questions. It’s actually really scary. so certainly I wouldn’t say in a way day, you know, fixes that, that up and are doing, you know, in team environment could be really very embarrassing, scary for a lot of people.
[00:49:16] So I definitely think it’s a one-on-one thing. And I definitely, like I said before, it’s they can, people will only share with me if they, if I’ve earned their trust and they feel safe and they can be vulnerable. And I’m not gonna tell everyone, Hey, that person. You know, they got stuff going on. You know, like, I’m not, that’s not the point.
[00:49:33] The point is to help them understand themselves and how to make use of that, or where they, you know, work on their strengths. Maybe there’s gaps that they would like, you know, maybe they’ll say, uh, you know, quite often, like a more introverted person than myself will go, oh, I, you know, I’m never gonna speak in front of people.
[00:49:48] You don’t have to speak in front of people, but. You can get your message across in different ways. It’s figuring out a way to do that, and that’s great ’cause you don’t want the same old people talking all, all the time in, in the same channels and things like that.
[00:50:00] So yeah, I definitely think it’s a one-on-one thing.
[00:50:01] And I think it’s also just the ownership on yourself. Like if you want bigger and better things for yourself, then you might, you know, need to think about. What you’re gonna do about that. And part of that just starts with you. and especially if you, unless you are, you know, working solo, even if you’re working solo, you’re still working with other people.
[00:50:20] If you’re really trying to influence a team and you’re really trying to get initiative and you’re really, you know, trying to, you know, succeed in that project, the more you can know yourself and the more that you can, sort of recognise. Other people, then you’ll be able to figure out how to have that honest conversation in that safe environment.
[00:50:38] also fun, exciting ones where everyone’s like, Ooh, you know, some creative facilitated, you know, brainstorm or something. Or creative problem solving, like, you know, when it really gets. Exciting, like that Sippa works and that’s good. But I think even more importantly, in a weird way, it’s actually the, the basis is when you need to have the hard conversations and say it without the emotional
[00:51:00] stuff and without, knowing that it’s in a positive intent and with respect, et cetera.
[00:51:05] If you can do that, you’ll get through things so much faster. ’cause what I’ve found is that most of my work, I guess as a leader, is more unpacking. That more emotional intelligence stuff rather than their actual skills and their knowledge set. ’cause that can be learned that way. But you don’t just suddenly learn how to self-reflect on yourself and suddenly learn how to empathise with other people and sort of figure out how you’re gonna connect you to them, in that influential way that takes.
[00:51:32] Time and practice, and I’m still, perhaps, I’m not saying I’m an expert at it, but, but yeah, it, it, that’s an ongoing thing. But I also find that fascinating ’cause I’ve, that’s why I love meeting people.
[00:51:41] Chris Hudson: I think. Yeah. I mean it’s, it works at different levels. Obviously. You’ve got people that work within a smaller group and they might have a close group of trusted peers where some of the things you described might.
[00:51:52] Be openly discussed or be quite comfortable in a way. Um mm-hmm. But then there will be other people that they wouldn’t be comfortable with sharing that information with.
[00:52:00] Obviously you can tell from who goes for coffee with who, and you know, that kind of thing. That’s right. That’s right. What’s going on?
[00:52:05] Mm-hmm. Uh, it suddenly ladders up and obviously, you know, from, from product management point of view, you’re relying on several individual teams often to, to come together. Mm-hmm. You’re facilitating all of that, but then at an organisational level, you’re thinking, well, how do I, how do I make all this work harmoniously?
[00:52:20] How can we enable that? Almost an inclusive design culture. Yeah. How do you think, how do you think it works? Well, sort of through, I guess, the macro all the way down. You know, are there, are there any big. Secrets or big, uh, I guess, initiatives that would, would help in, in establishing an inclusive design culture?
[00:52:38] Sam Yee: You, that is a really interesting question because, you know, again, I don’t wanna give the sort of rose colored glasses view. Mm-hmm. like I said earlier, I feel like sometimes a bit naively, like I really, really believed in some of the. Visions and, and dreams. Uh, some of the teams I’ve joined and, and I don’t know if everyone was really on board because, you know, because they haven’t been as
[00:53:00] transparent, as transparent with me.
[00:53:01] There’s probably some other financial pressures, board pressures, shareholder pressure. You know, there’s, there’s other things. So it, it makes it harder when you don’t know the full picture to, to really get there. But my thing is around accountability, so, You know, I mentioned earlier that I shared my JD with a lot of my own staff, ’cause I just want them to know what I’m on the hook for.
[00:53:22] Mm-hmm. This doesn’t actually happen, but I feel like if you did that at a macro level, like from boards and in every single position, then you’d be able to have that conversation, to make sure that the transparency is there and the alignment is there all the way through. because I think what I’ve experienced is.
[00:53:44] What I think the, the expectations of a certain role is, or what I think they’re trying to achieve is actually different. But that’s not, it’s just not said. And, you know, I’m not saying that it’s gonna be all this peachy keen, you know, dream world, but the more that you can be transparent about what the dream is, what the
[00:54:00] measure of success is, what real outcome look like, And then the roles are accountable to support that or have the conversation.
[00:54:08] If you’re doing things that are not supporting that, then you can see it all the way through. I think in, you know, larger companies, it’s obviously hard. You know, I’ve been in large, organisations, I guess where, you know, I sort of just, Realign my expectations going, you know, for this department or this team, or this project.
[00:54:26] I, I, okay, these are expectations, this is realistic. But I guess as I got, to more senior positions in, in, you’re obviously closer, like you, there’s Yeah. A lot more complexity, which my, my preference is to. Be transparent about all of that complexity so that you are all working to the same problem, not just a a sub part of that problem.
[00:54:48] ’cause then they can understand the certain decisions you have to make, you know why you have to do the crappy stuff or why you have to do X, Y, Z. That way you can be aligned. But it’s very, it’s. Very important that the
[00:55:00] actual, you know, vision and outcomes in the first place were defined. and that, and, and, and if it changes, that’s okay, but make sure that everyone is being communicated to the same way and they interpret that the same way.
[00:55:10] and then again, you’re free and empowered. You should be free and empowered to do what you need to do to get there. Yeah.
[00:55:16] Chris Hudson: Yeah. So it’s not just about the strategy, it’s not just about the vision and the purpose and I guess the big shiny documents and the things that, that are held up or put on the wall or in the lifts.
[00:55:25] That’s right. But it’s, it’s about how you can surface almost the context in which everyone needs to work. Because you are having to show the constraints as well as the, you know, the catalysts, you know, things that people can work with as well. And if people are aware of that, then they’ll know what they’ve got to work with.
[00:55:42] That’s, and then all of a sudden you’ve got that psychological safety because you think, okay, I understand this situation in which I’m operating. Yeah. And I know what the, what the goal is. And then if I know what my boss’s goal is and I, I can translate that to my own, then I’m pretty comfortable. Is that, yeah.
[00:55:57] Is that a fair summation?
[00:55:58] Sam Yee: Yeah, absolutely.
[00:56:00] It’s that transparency. It’s, you know, it’s what you say and do. I mean that actually, that sort of speaks to some authenticity and culture, but what you say and do, I’m expecting decisions that I’m seeing align to the big company vision. Now, if they don’t, then I’m confused, so that’s okay.
[00:56:19] If you. Give the context, as you say, as to why we’ve had to make that decision, why we’ve had to pivot, or why we’re not going ahead with this thing. Because, because when people don’t know, I know that sometimes the people feel like you might need to protect the staff or something, but when they don’t know, it’s just a growing frustration because they don’t, it’s not computing.
[00:56:37] You said we’re gonna do this, but now you’re saying this or, well, you said we’re gonna do this, but we are doing this thing that doesn’t make, doesn’t connect at all to this. So that communication is, Clear of the transparency of that context. Mm-hmm. and then you can work together still to assuming the big dream is still the same one.
[00:56:55] okay. This, you know, if, if it’s that crappy thing that we have to deal with, that’s
[00:57:00] okay. We’re gonna deal with a crappy thing together. Rather than go, oh, why are we doing this? Oh, leadership, dunno what they’re doing, da da. You know, suddenly all this negativity comes up. And, and, and maybe, and maybe that’s really hard, you know, that’s really hard to be vulnerable and, and clear and clear like that.
[00:57:17] Especially if you’re in, you know, quite, you know, big companies that, you know, have press all over them and things like that. But you, if you want the people to, not work harder, what’s the word? Work smarter and come up with innovative solutions faster, uh, and be, and adapt and all that kind of stuff. then when you have the full picture, you can do that.
[00:57:38] Mm-hmm. So that’s what I used to say as well as a. I guess in whatever role I had, I would ask a lot of questions to get the full picture ’cause I wanna know what I’m working with and how fast I can go or what I need to do to to get there. If you only give me a small slice of that, I can only work with the slice.
[00:57:55] And you don’t get the pie. I have no idea what that analogy meant, but, but yeah. I’m only working with a
[00:58:00] slither, but really the, the most that all organisations got out of me was when my boss or someone told me the bigger picture, the mm-hmm. The bigger barriers, I guess, or challenges. And also that helped me, you know, I’m a proactive person, so I, I just go, all right, there’s a bigger problem to solve.
[00:58:15] I’m not looking at my job description. I just think we should actually solve this. And, and, you know, Back to what you’re saying about, you know, people fixed mindsets when they’re like, oh, why Sam coming into our era? I, the way I got around that was I just showed them what the benefits were to them and I didn’t expect anything in return.
[00:58:31] ’cause I actually believed that it was the right thing to do and then sort of, you know, garner the people around to, to make it happen essentially. So that. That’s how that sort of had unfolded in my
[00:58:40] Chris Hudson: career. Yeah, I mean the slice of the pie is a great analogy I think because I’m like you, I need to see the picture and I need to know the facts to know where I stand in relation to that.
[00:58:48] Yeah. Uh, it’s also interesting just thinking about startup and scale up and obviously huge, you know, enterprise level organisations where some people choose to go into a very. You
[00:59:00] know, I guess sheltered role. Mm-hmm. And other people would choose to go into a highly transparent, highly exposed role where they see all of that and influence a lot of that.
[00:59:09] But for a lot of people, that would be overwhelming. And it’s probably probably the reason for why, you know, big organisations, if you’re talking to thousands of people, they have to start introducing all of these. Steps and processes and closed doors, and then all of a sudden, you know, it’s compartmentalised.
[00:59:24] And then you’ve got different departments doing things and obviously there’s, there’s a communication challenge immediately. It’s probably why a lot of startups scale up. You know, they talk about the number of 50 staff and then going up. Yes. Why that’s such a big deal because all of a sudden people are having to work differently and you can’t be exposed to everything because if you did, If you wouldn’t get any work done.
[00:59:43] Sam Yee: Exactly. And, and not saying that, yeah. It’s a easy problem to solve, right? Like, and there’s some things you just can’t share. it, you just gotta sort of make the right decisions that you think you need for the organisation. But yeah, that’s exactly why startups are so appealing, right? Because you just gotta, you get to.
[00:01:17] Have a piece of all the different pies. And it’s like, and you know, I actually had a recent, let’s call it a business inquiry. And they sort of said, Oh, so do you do product strategy or more business commercial? And I said, it’s not one or the other. They’re all intertwined. You can’t do a product strategy without knowing the business and commercial.
[00:01:34] and so, yeah, it was interesting. you know, that, that, that person that sort of had that. Had that line of thinking, but yeah, it is, it is hard and which is why it’s hard to, you know, find people aligned with, you know, values and purpose and things because it’s, it’s, it is very difficult to, execute. I can only sort of say, you know, be as transparent as you can with what you can to, to
[00:02:00] allow as much freedom empowerment for, you know, your people to do what you need to do, I would say.
[00:02:05] Chris Hudson: Yeah. And finding the right people, right. That can get behind, get behind you or work with you.
[00:02:11] Sam Yee: And yeah, as you say, well, like also certain champions, as you say, certain type of people want that kind of thing. And other people sort of want them or just tell me, you know, where I fit in and I’ll do that really, really well.
[00:02:22] and I’ve always been the type of person, well, I’m just generally a problem solver, but. Then, you know, that problem is really part of a bigger problem, and part of a bigger problem, and a subset of problems. And next thing you know, we’re in the low key spaghetti world of, you know, timelines of all these problems.
[00:02:37] But, but I find it energising. Some people might find that overwhelming, and they only want to work on one set of a problem. And you go, great, that person can work on that. Other people like me kind of want to see, you know, these different things, they get their energy in different ways. And again, I say that’s why humans are amazing, because everyone’s really different and motivated by different things.
[00:02:56] And if you, you know, draw that out and, you know, we’re
[00:03:00] all working on different things or, or perfecting or, you know, mastering whatever it is that you’re working on, you have a really good combination to start off with. Yeah,
[00:03:08] Chris Hudson: and I think it’s important for who you put in place and who you choose to work around, because ultimately, within a working environment, you usually have some level of choice as to where you focus your effort, who you spend your most time with.
[00:03:20] And people are often, you know, it’s unconscious bias, but they’re looking for people that can either affirm their their own beliefs and actions, uh, as opposed to challenge them a lot of the time. And that can lead to, you know, that kind of stale environment. Sometimes, people hire people that are very similar to them and skills and profile.
[00:03:38] All of that is happening. It’s not helping diversity and it’s not really. Progressing the business a lot of the time either, but yeah, what’s your take on all
[00:03:47] Sam Yee: of that? You know that when you said that that totally reminded me of a an interview I had and I you know I always used to go to interviews because I want to know my own value and things but I remember someone saying to me You are the most, you are
[00:04:00] the loudest, most extroverted social research insights person I’ve ever met.
[00:04:05] And I knew I wasn’t the typical profile. And I don’t know, you know, what they wanted or not. Well, I actually, I didn’t think I was suited because, It just, it seemed more like a, like a science lab, I would call it. so I didn’t think that I would be as embraced actually. and this, this was like way, way early, but I guess over time I just sort of leaned into my own uniqueness, I guess, and how I approach things and just sold myself on that.
[00:04:31] And you can kind of take it or leave it. Like, you know, I do come with a burst of energy, almost cyclone type, like, you know, and if that’s what you need and then, you know, that that’s me. I also. I’m the type of person, like I said, energised by people. So, you know, I’d sort of make a point of that, but I guess even just what we’ve talked about today, I would just literally describe how I approach situations, how I approach people.
[00:04:55] You know, there are some common themes and there’s some things that, you know, just. Sort of try something new. And
[00:05:00] I, I definitely, because I would consider myself a generalist. I never, I was started out in marketing and then I, you know, I didn’t really go into agency account management too far. I didn’t become a data scientist, but I dealt with analytics.
[00:05:11] I didn’t become. Yeah, one particular thing. I wasn’t like, I’m not qualified as a researcher, but no enough, but I wouldn’t do a research role. So with all those things, it’s sort of more, yeah, sort of like, I’m a, I’m a generalist. And this is how I, this is how I approach things. The adaptability and flexibility I have can be a strength for.
[00:05:32] a company or position, or if you’re looking for a more fixed role that needs this and that, then that’s fine. But I guess I used to say, look, I’ll pick up anything. I’m very curious and I like to learn stuff. So if I don’t know something, this is how I’d attack it. And this is how I’ve done it before.
[00:05:47] And that’s how I became a journalist in little different things. but I do find that that is quite a strength these days. Maybe that’s, you know, the roles that I’ve had where. You know, because I’ve got experts around me in my team. I’ve got designers, I’ve got developers, I’ve got UX
[00:06:00] researchers, I’ve got, you know, loads of people.
[00:06:03] I don’t need to know those things. I just need to know how to get the best out of the people, and collaborate with each other to get the best outcomes, uh, and be very clear on the, on what those are. Yeah. So, and I definitely felt, I remember when I joined one organisation and I, I said to them, I walked in and I said to them, I.
[00:06:22] I have to be this, like I have to be my energetic social self to get the best out of me. I feel like what I’m observing in the culture is it’s very flat and very quiet and I don’t want to be this loud mouth person that’s actually going to piss people off. Maybe I’m not the right fit, but actually they hide me anyway.
[00:06:39] So I think they wanted the energy. So it’s like, okay, I’m bringing it. so yeah, it’s very interesting. And I think again, it’s, when, well, what I expect when people interview me or, or approach me, I guess. Is maybe they are looking for something different because what, what the cookie cutter thing hasn’t worked out and then needing someone with a bit
[00:07:00] of spark and a little bit of adaptability and flexibility.
[00:07:02] Look at, you know, this is what I do. I go in, I look at what’s there and then I look at what we can improve and optimise. And then I look at, you know. The people and where they want to go and use that. And I just do that in every job basically, probably, probably as a consultant as well, do exactly the same thing.
[00:07:19] And actually it’s an enjoyable process and journey. Like I said, you, you get, you get some wins and you don’t see it all, but you know, it’s the joy of working with people. Really.
[00:07:28] Chris Hudson: I mean, the thing that I love is that you just put yourself out there, right? You’re, you’re in the middle. You’re walking into the middle of.
[00:07:35] You know, you’re pretty much in that campfire position where everyone’s just around you and you’re engaging them in one way and you’re, you know, you’re, you’re obviously understanding them. You’re working with what’s there. You don’t always know walking into an organisation, uh, particularly as a new, new employee, what you’re going to get.
[00:07:52] Until you do that, but you’re just walking straight in, straight in there and doing it, which is great.
[00:07:56] Sam Yee: First things first, get in there, get to know the people, get
[00:08:00] the vibe, you know, how they’re feeling about things, you know, things that happened in the past, what they were hoping, what they expect from me, you know, and then at some point in that first month, I’ll share my JD and I go, well, this is what they told me, but actually after talking to everyone, I’m actually going to go back to them and.
[00:08:15] Maybe get them to change it a bit. And then that, a lot of that often surprises people. They’re like, what? Like after just chatting to us and I’m like, yes, it’s very important what the company thought they were hiring or what they needed. Uh, I have made my own observations and talk to the people that count, not that they don’t count, but as in more people that, you know, that probably weren’t included in that process to really refine what we really need to do.
[00:08:39] Now I’ve had, now I’m more informed. So. and I want my, I don’t know, performance expectations, et cetera, to be very clear. you know, back to whoever, you know, I’m reporting to back to the company and to the team. So, yeah, it’s, uh, but you know, that’s what I enjoy. Right. So I just want to know what everyone’s up to.
[00:08:59] How did you get here? What’s your story? Oh, it’s great.
[00:09:04] Chris Hudson: Well, that’s so good. I mean, maybe we can wrap up there. But before we do, uh, you know, for entrepreneurs like yourself, we touched on a number of themes today. But, but what would be one thing that you’d say to other entrepreneurs that are trying to make waves, make change, or just, you know, feel comfortable in their roles?
[00:09:24] Sam Yee: Hmm. One single piece of advice. sorry, say again, or three,
[00:09:29] Chris Hudson: one or three or five, pick a number. I don’t mind.
[00:09:32] Sam Yee: Okay. My, my thing is, master the art of persuasion. Uh, and I mean that in the positive way. And I’m kind of cheating because when I say that it’s kind of like a catch all for a lot of things, because the art of persuasion is.
[00:09:47] Well, in my mind anyway, it’s a lot of, like I said, knowing self awareness of yourself, trying to empathise, with the other people you’re trying to convince to, you know, do whatever you’re doing as an
[00:10:00] entrepreneur. You know, so there’s lots of the empathy, finding common goals, getting your facts and your evidence and your credibility sorted, and also having the detail of the how.
[00:10:08] All of that has to be wrapped up in this art of persuasion that, by the way, no one person is the same. So it turns out, you know, I literally used to. When I first was exposed to this, I’ll give her a shout, by the way. a lady called Michelle Bowden, I did this at Channel 7. It was really amazing.
[00:10:24] Then I learned a lot of these things from her. But, you know, when I first started out practicing the art of persuasion, once I got past the manipulation, I, You know, I literally wrote in my notebook, uh, these things, what I wanted, the message I was trying to say and, you know, what I thought about. and sometimes I had the notes in front of me, but goddamn, it actually worked.
[00:10:43] Like it, it, it works in emails and works in conversations, works in presentations. the more. You master that, awareness, I guess you’ll find it’s actually an easier way to convince. cause it’s a people thing, it’s a credibility thing, and then
[00:11:00] it’s the actual solution. So I was just saying, yeah, master the art of persuasion, uh, is, would be my advice for budding entrepreneurs.
[00:11:09] Chris Hudson: Brilliant. All right. Thanks so much, Sam. And where does all of this leave you? I mean, you’ve, you’ve talked about some of the companies you’ve worked in, uh, what, what do you want to do now or next, or do you want to share that?
[00:11:19] Sam Yee: Yeah, so I’m actually on my first ever career break after 20 plus or so years, which is actually really scary and it’s a different mindset after being sort of, you know, A more corporate, and startup, we’re to start off eight months as well.
[00:11:33] but, but it is weird not to have like a full time role when you’ve been doing that for 20 plus years and having structure. So it’s, I mean, that, uh, time where I’m, I guess, a lot of self reflection, uh, exploring whole new bunch of opportunities. And as you can imagine, my energy is kind of gotten the better of me and I went kind of bit crazy and all the things I could do, but I’m now starting to.
[00:11:55] Uh, get a bit closer about what I’d like to do. And it’d probably be a lot more in consulting and
[00:12:00] products. lots of career coaching and mentoring as well. I’ve established a network in that way, maybe a bit of business coaching as well. so there’s quite a few things I’m exploring, and love to hear from anyone.
[00:12:12] They want to reach out on LinkedIn and things and talk some more, but yeah, I think, out of all of these experiences, I think I’d still actually bring a lot of that approach and miles and authenticity and energy to them. But I guess I’m looking for. I guess the flexibility in consulting sort of gives you, you know, sort of that, that transparency is really clear of, of what you’re, trying to do.
[00:12:35] And, you know, I’d still love to energise and motivate teams if I’m consulting in places as well. but yeah, it’s sort of trying to, find something new. and that’s where I’m at. So I’m excited by that.
[00:12:48] Chris Hudson: Very excited. Well, we can’t wait to hear about what happens next in the ongoing chapters of SAMU, but it’s been, yeah, an absolute pleasure having you on the show and really appreciate the chat today.
[00:12:58] Thanks so much, Sam.
[00:13:00]
[00:13:00] Sam Yee: Fantastic. Thank you very much.
[00:13:02] Chris Hudson: Okay. So that’s it for this episode. If you’re hearing this message, you’ve listened all the way to the end. So thank you very much. We hope you enjoyed the show. We’d love to hear your feedback. So please leave us a review and share this episode with your friends, team members, leaders, if you think it’ll make a difference.
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