Beyond Yoga and Fruit: Revolutionising Mental Health in Creative Workspaces
“You just got to put the supports in place and show them why they’re doing something and give them a reason for being, rather than just, you know, hey, here’s a task. Get that done, and then I’ll give your next one. We want stuff at work that feels rewarding and that shows that we are progressing in our work. And that, to be honest, is just being a good manager, being a professional business, showing people their pathways through your company. If you can do that, you’ll improve mental health much better than yoga on a Thursday, meditation Monday morning, and some healthy fruit and snacks in the fridge.”
Andy Wright
Andy Wright, the visionary CEO of Streamtime and founder of Never Not Creative, who is on a mission to revolutionise the way we think about mental well-being in our work environments.
Andy Wright brings a wealth of experience and an innovative mindset to the table, revealing how he’s tackled pressing issues like anxiety and depression within the creative sector.
Tune in to this episode for actionable insights and inspiring strategies to transform mental health practices in your creative workspace.
In this episode you’ll hear about
- Deciding focus and project attraction
- Ensuring action and impact in initiatives
- Mental health experiences influencing method
- Views on supporting graduates and internships
- Design of work and its effects on mental health
- Strategies for workplace mental health improvement
- Effective business approaches to mental health
- Managing constant change and uncertainty
- Methods for creating lasting change
Key links
Andy Wright LinkedIn
Never Not Creative Website
Creative Mornings where Andy gave a talk on mental health
Everymind
Anxious Achiever Podcast
Streamtime
Interbrand
Landor
R/GA
Never Not Finishing School
Allies and Never Not Creative
HBR Article – the concept of the “ideal worker” and its impact on personal identity
About our guest
Andy is an experienced leader in the creative industry with a successful track record of business growth, and creating award winning innovative brands and products. Andy is the creator of Never Not Creative.
Currently, CEO of Streamtime, project management software for the creative industry, Andy previously co-founded creative agency For The People, and worked in leadership positions at Interbrand, Landor and R/GA. Passionate about improving outcomes for emerging talent, mental health and recognising the value of creativity he founded Never Not Creative in 2018.
About our host
Our host, Chris Hudson, is a Teacher, Experience Designer and Founder of business transformation coaching and consultancy Company Road.
Company Road was founded by Chris Hudson, who saw over-niching and specialisation within corporates as a significant barrier to change.
Chris considers himself incredibly fortunate to have worked with some of the world’s most ambitious and successful companies, including Google, Mercedes-Benz, Accenture (Fjord) and Dulux, to name a small few. He continues to teach with University of Melbourne in Innovation, and Academy Xi in CX, Product Management, Design Thinking and Service Design and mentors many business leaders internationally.
Transcript
Chris Hudson: 0:05
Hello and welcome back to the company road podcast, where we explore what it takes to change a company and what it takes for the people within those companies and organisations to make that possible through work that they do and through positivity and through the impact that they can create in some way. So I’m your host, Chris, and I’m going to take you today into the world of Creativity, innovation, and industry transformation. And I’m really thrilled to introduce our next guest, Andy Wright, who is a multi faceted leader in the creative industry, and he’s got a huge, remarkable track record of business growth and innovation, Andy, huge welcome to the show. Thank you very much for having me. Very exciting. And Andy, you’re the CEO of Streamtime, which is a project management software company catering to the creative industry, but that’s probably just the tip of the iceberg because you do a lot of things. So your journey has included co founding the creative agency for the people and holding leadership positions at renowned firms such as Interbrand, Landor, and RGA, which are all huge giants in the industry. And CEO Your passion for improving outcomes for emerging talent and addressing mental health, which is a huge topic at the minute in the creative field, has led you to found Never Not Creative in 2018. So that’s been going for a few years, but there’s even more. Your diverse experiences extend beyond the creative industry, and you wear a few different hats. So you’re a tennis coach, girls football coach, and I think even a Bollywood actor. Yeah, we’re going to tap into your wealth of knowledge about creativity, leadership, and maybe some of those other things too, and driving change in the industry. So Andy, you’ve had a massive journey in the creative industry so far and you wear many hats, but let me start with an open question, which is how do you decide what to do and where to focus on and what draws you to do certain things?
Andy Wright: 1:37
Yeah, that’s a good question. How do I decide what to do? I’d love to say there’s like a formula, but it can be quite sporadic. At times, and there’s definitely times when you just kind of go and get up and go, let’s have a crack at this today. I think I’ve got to the point where if I see something and I think I could make a difference, I could probably have a crack at it. Through years of experience and privilege to be able to get to that point. One example of that I guess is last year with Never Not Creative, we launched a free legal support line for people. And that was for people who are experiencing abuse, bullying, or discrimination at work. And I’d love to say it was like this big project was as easy as contacting a lawyer and say, Hey, can we offer this service to people in our industry and we’ll pay for the first 30 minutes of advice. And what we really wanted to do is just stop what was happening was these situations and incidents would occur and businesses would do a very good job of sweeping them under the carpet, getting someone to sign an NDA and moving on. And usually it’s the victim or the person who’s affected that ends up moving on and the person who was the perpetrator ends up higher up in the business at some point or even be able to get a better job somewhere else. I was getting lots of stories like that. We get lots of stuff through Never Not Creative and I’d heard rumours of this idea being present in the past, but for some reason it got squashed and never quite got up. And so I thought, well, there’s nothing stopping me from doing it. And that’s what we did. So unfortunately that can lead to a whole bunch of things. It’s just where you end up taking on too much, but. Yeah. Normally it’s a case of, well, if we’ve got an idea, let’s go and let’s go and do it. And I think that’s one way of getting stuff done.
Chris Hudson: 3:15
Yeah, definitely. Definitely. I mean, that’s amazing work anyway, but yeah, and I love the premise of never not because you’ve set up a few things in that vein, but it just feels like why not? I feel like there’s particularly in the creative industries, I want to say, but also within organisations, there’s a sense of enlightenment having passed and being, and everyone is in a very happy and harmonious space, but you forget that a lot of these stories and incidents that you were describing actually happen. And I think we need to acknowledge that. And it’s a bit like a referendum or anything else that comes up. You feel like, you know, what’s going to happen and the environment that you’re in, but suddenly the votes go the other way. And actually you’re surprised by that.
Andy Wright: 3:50
And I think. People are tired of talk. We’ve just finished the mentally healthy research for 2024. And now there’s quite a few anecdotes in there of like, yes, things are getting better, but there’s a lot of talk. And I think if you look at this as an industry, like quite often our industry solutions to problems are awareness and it’s like, Oh, well, we need to make people more aware of this and it’ll get better. And I said, well, no, awareness doesn’t fix anything. Okay, great. It’s a nice intro, but action is what will fix stuff and actually changing behaviour and changing the systems that are creating this stuff in the first place. And so I think. That’s always been what I’ve tried to look at is like, how do we create change that is not just driven by more communication about the issue and more discussion. So yeah, that’s why a lot of the initiatives that we do exist.
Chris Hudson: 4:38
Well, let’s get into that. So let’s talk about action, maybe, because I think that. Saying that we can’t, we’re talking too much talking, maybe a starting point. It’s funny that we’re talking about this on the podcast as well. We’ll talk about the action that you’re doing, but how do you take an approach of action to some of these different areas and ensure that you’re actually quite swiftly moving into things that are tangible and can make real impact?
Andy Wright: 4:58
Let’s take mental wellbeing as a topic. I, and if, and to give a bit of context, so I was diagnosed with Quite acute anxiety and depression, probably back in 2015, 2016, and I didn’t know what it was. Back then, not a lot of people were talking about mental health. Like the closest you get to it is, I don’t know, watching something on American TV where someone sat on a couch bawling into a box of tissues and therapy is what people did, but they didn’t do it over here. I was like, okay, so what is this? I think I really, I approached it in the best way that I know how, which is like turning it into a project. It’s kind of like a brief, what would I do? And around the same time, I got asked to do a talk for Creative Mornings. The way Creative Mornings works is there’s a global theme that gets set and then in the different chapters around the world, everyone gives a talk on that theme. And the theme that month was risk. And I thought, well, okay, nothing more risky than coming out and talking about mental health. illness and diagnosis. It really did kind of bring up the fact that so many people were at that point were unaware of what it really was and how to handle it. So I thought it was a good idea to come out and talk about it. And the reaction I got was, I’d say half the audience, like some people I’ve never known, come up. Some people that I’ve worked with years ago come up afterwards and go, Hey, thanks so much for sharing. I’ve been feeling, Something similar, which was fantastic, right? Like that’s quite validating and knowing that you might’ve helped people and given them a little bit more confidence, but then the other half, and also some people who I’m really close with and would work with every day. Would never mention it again. And that was quite hard to take. And so I think the other part of this is like, you think about the more and more you talk about a topic, the more and more you attract people who are interested in that topic. And I was like, okay, well, if that’s what I’m doing now, like I should probably just check. Am I just, you know, I meant to say this, but I, am I just attracting all the other crazies? I thought, well, let’s validate that. And let’s just see how big, is this a problem or not? And I think pretty confident it was, like I’ve worked in businesses where people had burnt out. I’ve worked in businesses where people left the business because they got stomach ulcers, like literally they were forced into hospital because of the stress of work. And so we sort of got together with a mental health charity called Batia, at the time Unlimited, who are a foundation in the media marketing and creative industry that help young people around mental health. And Everymind, who are like the academics, so they’re the government sort of research institute that look into mental health, at the time they just looked into mental health in small businesses, and I approached their director and said, Hey, is there any chance we can borrow your survey and adapt it for the creative industry? And she said, yes. And that’s what we did. And so it was this great way of being able to go, well, you got to understand to be able to take action, you have to understand it well enough first. You’ve got to come at it with some sort of credibility. And I couldn’t just come at it with having done a poll on Twitter. We did quite a significant piece of research. More than 2000 people participated in this survey, which I think in itself was enough to say, Hey, this is a significant issue. And we found out that twice the national average of people in our industry were experiencing signs of. Quite moderate to severe anxiety and depression. Stress was an issue. The way that businesses were focusing on this issue, if they were at all, did not really match any sort of strategy for effectiveness. And we began to shine a light on the problem. And as a result, we very quickly followed that up with Minimum standards for businesses. So we worked with a few experts. We also worked with industry. So we had about 20 people in our change group at that point from across the industry. And we wrote standards that we believed businesses should live up to. And in fact, to be honest, not even live up to, they were called minimum standards. And if you were to actually, no one ever does this, but if you were to start a business and just read a handbook around your responsibilities of owning a business. Most of it was that. To be honest, right? Like, you know, most people
Chris Hudson: 8:45
wouldn’t
Andy Wright: 8:45
start business if they’d read all that, but they probably wouldn’t too hard, but they were pretty obvious, common sense things, but things that weren’t happening in businesses. Then we got businesses to sign up to these standards and it was a stop. And so I guess it was that way of coming at a problem from validating it. To then going, okay, look, here are some guidance for you. Not just more talking and discussion. Let’s just run some events around discussing what mental health is like at work. It’s actually sign up to this stuff and make it happen. And then since then we’ve done whole heaps of work in this space, but I think that’s validation and that’s the thread that keeps going today. You know, we’ve just launched the 2024 results. And it gives the credibility to go, okay, and here’s what we’re going to do next.
Chris Hudson: 9:26
Yeah, I really love that story. I think there’s so much in that point of view of just observing what’s out there and what you’re seeing. And I think trusting your intuition a little bit to then flipping that into a really, not only credible, but a practical outcome that people can obviously take part in. So the testing aspects is obviously factored in from a research point of view. You’re seeing that it’s a proven problem. You can align on that problem space effectively. And then you’re to a position where you’re trying to help. And obviously if you know that there’s a problem and you’re trying to help and you can provide solutions that are relevant, then obviously it grows from there. So I think the learning from that feels quite clear from an intrapreneur’s point of view. And that if you see something that’s wrong. There’s a chance you can probably fix it if you stitch together some of these steps. So I really like that. And has that been your model through Never Not into other areas as well?
Andy Wright: 10:12
Yeah, pretty much. I think we’ve done a lot of work recently with students and graduates. So recognising that it’s a pretty hard industry to get into at the moment. We did a roadshow last year where we invited students and industry to come together. And one of the cities down in Adelaide. And we were told that it was the wrong time of year, students are too busy, they won’t come to an event, blah, blah, blah. There were 75 students come to an event down in Adelaide, which was fantastic, but at the same time made me think, Jeez, are there 75 graduate positions open in Adelaide? I’m not sure there is. Universities and education are churning people out into our industry. But for what? And so we were able to kind of see that firsthand. We’d actually did something similar. We did some research and then we wrote minimum standards for internships. One of the biggest things we were seeing that there was just still amazes me that there are still so many unpaid internships around in the industry. One of the people in our change group was actually a lawyer for a union. And he was one of the lawyers that helped bring down George Calombaris when it was found out that he wasn’t paying his workers correctly. And we’d show him ads for that were on like LinkedIn and Seek and Indeed and stuff, and about 70, 80 percent of them, he’d go, yeah, they could do that internship. And then if they wanted, they could go back and sue for loss of wages. And so do I think. Businesses are bad and exploitative. I don’t think most of them are, I think some of them are aware of what they’re doing, but others are doing it just because that’s what they did when they grew up and came into the industry. So like understanding all of that has now led into another initiative. Uh, which is called Never Not Finishing School. And we’ve got people going through this at the moment, which is, it’s fantastic and it takes grads who have left university but haven’t been able to find a job yet and we take them through a seven week program on the softer skills and the way to talk about yourself and stand out from the crowd to help you get a job and then also manage the first sort of 90 days of expectations of what that looks like to prepare them. Because one of the other. Biggest things that we were hearing from industry was like, Oh God, like all the young people coming into industry now, they’re not job ready. And it’s like, geez, we’re writing off a generation of people saying that they’re not job ready. I mean, was I job ready? Were you job ready when we were coming into the industry? I don’t think we were. And also. Like take this into the backdrop of what is going on in the world. When I came into the industry and I was lucky we’re both English. I was the last year of student grants. So she had most of my degree paid for, for me, whereas people now are coming out with 30, grand’s worth of heck step. And so add that to anxiety from technology and social media and mobile phones, add that to poor financial situation to the highest rental that we’ve ever seen and. I don’t know. How do you survive against that backdrop? That’s pretty hard. And so being able to understand that better and then realise that actually we’ve got to work harder to give these people a chance is a really kind of important insight. And so we’ve been presenting the mentally healthy research recently, and there’s this real generational gap between believing that the youngsters don’t have it as hard as we did, but actually it’s just a different kind of stress. Yes. It may look like they work less hours, but they’re, what’s going on for them is equivalent, if not harder.
Chris Hudson: 13:33
Yeah, yeah. I think a lot, listening to you, I think I put a lot of that down to the rate of change from what you were saying. So the fact that choice and optionality is there, and expectation is obviously there because you’ve got the choice and you’re exposed to so many different possibilities that everything sounds amazing, can make a million off two hours a week worth of work and all the things that are popping up into our social feeds right now. So it’s a hard thing to ignore. And obviously some people are going into that. The sense of also over serving industries. I don’t know what the right analogy is, production line kind of sprung to mind, but it’s probably not the right one, but it’s basically you’re thinking about what’s the education system outputting and what’s the bridge then into the world of work. And then through the different stages, particularly if career transitioning is happening ever more frequently than every, it used to be every two years, probably in the marketing sense, but probably even faster than that now. And then with side hustles and other things going on, that contact switch and that sense of preparedness is, is going to put quite a lot of strain on the brain and obviously your mental health is going to be suffering as a result of all of that. So it’s going to be very hard to navigate unless there’s some sort of infrastructure and support. Service probably through those stages. And like you say, it’s a different challenge than the kind of lifetime career people that did exist 20, 30 years ago. What are you thinking in terms of maybe some of the solution space? I mean, maybe you’re just in that research phase, but are you thinking that there are credible options for people to be able to access and in support and that sort of thing at the minute?
Andy Wright: 14:58
There’s support for people who are experiencing this at the moment. And that’s necessary, right? Like never not creative offers circles, which are mental health support groups. Like you don’t have to be mentally ill to be in them, but it’s a chance to chat about mental health with people in your industry who know what you’re going through. Like for creatives or designers, for example, like often if you’re chatting to mates that don’t, Work in the industry, you don’t get much further than I’ve heard colouring in the internet, putting an ad up on that billboard up there. It doesn’t really quite capture everything that you guys do in your day to day. To be honest, the biggest things that we can do, don’t instantly or immediately kind of make you think of mental health or mental well being. They’re actually around how we design work. And how we design work so that we are stimulated by it, so that we can find meaning in our work, so that we’re challenged to an extent. Like we don’t want, I think people come into this industry, they’ve sort of been tarred with the brush of they want an easy life and everyone’s got a tiptoe around them and all this mental health stuff. It’s like, It’s no, it’s not that, and they’ll work hard. Just got to put the supports in place and show them why they’re doing something and give them a reason for being rather than just, Hey, here’s a task, get that done. And then I’ll give you your next one. We want stuff at work that feels rewarding and that shows that we are progressing in our work. And that to be honest, is just being a good manager, being a professional business, showing people their pathways through your company. If you can do that. You’ll improve mental health much better than yoga on a Thursday, meditation Monday morning, and some healthy fruit and snacks in the fridge in an EAP program, right? Which is, up until recently, I would say is the predominant mental health strategy for most businesses. We had a really good anecdote in the research. I won’t get it perfectly right, but it talks about how in response to trying to create a mentally healthier workplace, they Yes, did have mental health first aid. I think mental health first aid is fantastic and definitely worth doing. It’s probably the best leadership course I’ve ever done, to be honest. But then there’s also pay equity, making sure that people are paid fairly across the business. Like the idea of injustice and the effect of that on people’s mental health at work is Big, making sure that people felt included and that there was felt like you could belong to a business and you wouldn’t be judged for saying the type of person you are or certain beliefs that you have, or even then a certain idea that you have are all things that improve our mental well being at work and allow us to kind of thrive and not worry about stuff that sort of ends up holding us back. And then when you look at sort of psychosocial legislation that’s come in to Australia in since 2023, identify some of the risks that might stop that from happening. And that might be like. Poor behaviour. That might be the way relationships are not managed with external clients or suppliers. It might be the way that people treat each other within meetings or the cultures, subcultures exist within teams. So all of those things are actually just how do you help people get along? How do you give them the support that they need to be brave enough to do the work that you want them to do and just make sure that you’ve put everything in place for them not to fail? That. Is the best mental health strategy you could possibly put in place in a business. And the other part of that is going, well, you know what, that’s a whole of business solution. It’s not HR’s job. I had this great quote in a podcast the other day that if you want to affect anything in this area, whether it be mental wellbeing, whether it be diversity, equity, and inclusion, belonging, it’s that you have to think about solutions here as. Rows in a spreadsheet and not columns, because if you think about columns, you’re just slicing up the business and you’ll get some really good traction in some areas, but you’ll miss a whole bunch. But you start thinking about things in rows, then actually you’re going across a business and you’re thinking about how much change you can create by going, by touching almost every touch point within the business. And I kind of really liked that quote. It was from a podcast called the Anxious Achiever. Yeah. One of the episodes in that was really good.
Chris Hudson: 18:45
Yeah, good, good. I think there’s a lot from what you’re saying that kind of falls to just getting the basics right rather than getting into very elaborate kind of schemes and programs where culture is examined over a long period of time, a lot of research and then, you know, a lot of initiatives that then tried out to varying degrees of success probably, but just with the basic stuff and then effecting that change in one way or another. How have you seen that work well, you know, particularly maybe within organisations of different sizes, but where does that locus for change start and, and how do you see it sort of spreading into this feeling of warm fuzziness and goodwill?
Andy Wright: 19:20
Often people will talk about change has to come from the top and it’s a leader’s role. I’d say it’s leader’s responsibility. They have to take accountability for the well being of their people in their business. And also, maybe we need to point it out, but it goes without saying that performance in business improves when people are healthier. It’s not a nice to have to have healthy people. It’s like your business would be better. But I do think that one of the best things that leaders can do is recognise the problem, listen, and then get out of the way. So I’ve seen examples of this, and we’ve actually, I did work with one business and it’s, this took a lot, a long time, but they, Look to creating and I guess again, it’s that kind of row idea across a business, a bunch of people who are really interested in proving the mental wellbeing outcomes for the whole business, but they were spread across and they were given the resources and the time to go away and look at the problem and to come back to leadership with a solution and it just got more traction. The fact that. People being affected by the problem went off and got the chance to look at solving the problem. I think said more to other people in the business than you could possibly do from a leadership mandate, right? Because leaders, me included, we’re not aware of everything that’s going on for people. And if you’ve been doing this job for a while, you’re probably not even aware of what it’s like to do that job. Could you still do that job that you did 10, 15 years ago? It’s different. And so I think if leaders can give the permission and the resources and the time for people to go off and create solutions and then validate that. And so if something comes back and it’s a bit tricky, it’s like, no, back it. If you want the outcome, then you have to deal with the way that people have come up with the solution. That will be the most effective way. I’ve seen that. And I believe that I think. That is how you can get more engagement, more effectiveness, uh, answering a, a problem.
Chris Hudson: 21:06
So pretty much the same as what we were saying before with your research, right? Look at the problem, establish that it’s a shared problem, get those voices together, present what you found out, and show what you can do about it.
Andy Wright: 21:16
But as a leader, don’t think that you have to fix it. I think that’s the biggest thing I’ve probably learned over the years is like, we love fixing stuff. That’s what we do. And if you look at like white men in leadership of which we are the majority, white men love fixing stuff, right? Like that’s. It’s part of, I watched this really good video just last night, actually, on how we can be more aware of our culture. Cause a lot of people talk about DEI and I as like understanding other people’s cultures. Like, well, you need to understand your culture first. And this guy talks about it fantastically. Maybe we can put it in the links. Made you just think of like, Oh yeah, that is me. And that is how I kind of do things. And so, you know what, if you want to get a solution in this space or any solutions, like get out of the way, let the people who are affected by it do the work, cause they’re going to come up with a much better solution. And. You know, like you said, if you’re an intrapreneur, if you’re doing human centred design or whatever it is, if you’re innovation in a company, that’s exactly what you would do. So why don’t we do it for ourselves?
Chris Hudson: 22:08
Yeah, all true. All true. We’ve had a lot of talk around human centred design and design thinking on the podcast. So it’s widely practiced, it feels like now, but it’s also turned into a bit of a process, right? So you kind of push everything through it to see what it will come up with. But then a lot of people are kind of fighting it because there’s gut instincts and intuition and there are various people Traditional leadership models as I know, it’s going to be this and you just do what we’ve told you to do and there’s friction points, right? And it feels like this, like, I mean, even what you’re saying, an understanding or an expectation around leadership going into an organisation or knowing where you stand in relation to, to a particular culture that you’re walking into, some would expect it to run more conventionally, and that would be a kind of safe and an understood space. But others would be quite happy to try out different things. And no, I feel like even that difference in belief or maybe outlook might also cause confusion, right? It might cause a friction point because some people are in that camp and some people are not in that camp. So in terms of alignment, if we talk about that and visioning and, you know, getting people onto the same page, how do we best approach that? Because sometimes it’s a quick, sharp reset in the Dan Andrews style. You know, we’re going to just lock down everything and it’s all going to be different as of Monday. In other cases, it’s rolled out over. maybe three years, five years. So things are changing all the time. The ground’s moving beneath me. How do you navigate some of that? Do you think?
Andy Wright: 23:26
Yeah, it’s, it is hard and it is tempting, right? To just go, Oh, can we just rip it all up and start again? Like let’s just fire everyone and just start again. I’d be lying if I hadn’t thought about that at many times, probably throughout my career. But again, like it’s this journey of I’ve changed my Opinion and view on what’s most successful for being able to create change. I did used to believe that it was strong leadership, set the vision, get everyone aligned, make sure it happens. If they don’t understand it, make sure they understand it and it works for some. Um, but it’s not the only way. And I also think now more and more that if you want to get the best out of people, because actually it’s not down to the one person or the small leadership team at the top, it’s around everyone to deliver it. And so in that you kind of need much more consensus and that can be frustrating because you feel like you’re constantly having to sell your dream or, you know, whatever it is your vision is. It’s irrelevant if you can’t achieve it because people didn’t get on board. And so it takes longer. It takes more discussion. It may look different to what you originally envisioned it as, but it will be a much more effective and sustainable solution in the long term. There’s a really good model, I think it’s called integrative decision making, which talks about how you can bring people on a journey like that, and also how you can keep it moving. It’s not necessarily that people can just say, no, we’re not doing that, but it’s actually allowing them to slightly shape or slightly modify, and then be able to kind of give consent to continue knowing that, you know, they won’t stand in the way and they’ll get behind it. And I think that’s a nice way of looking at lots of different decisions in businesses, you don’t. Necessarily have to have like the idea and meeting, even if you’ve got an idea and you want to bring it to fruition, you’ve got to think about how you take it around the houses and it’s like, it’s one of those things I remember working in a business where people like knew, never take a new idea to this boss on like a, a Thursday afternoon. Cause we just have probably just come back from a boozy lunch and it’s probably just not going to be in the mood for anything or like tired or whatever it might be, but you know, there’s, there was always those things of like, Oh, always go Monday morning or always do it Friday afternoon and just slip it into conversation. Or like, how do you get something through? There’s like, there’s methodologies to that, to getting, to winning people over. And I think at that time it was very much a tactic and not necessarily like a bigger strategy for how do you create change.
Chris Hudson: 25:49
Yeah. Well, how badly could this go? Right. Cause yeah, I reckon I’ve been in the camp of trying everything out at the wrong time for many, many years. I was doing that. And then you just sort of learn from it, don’t you? But I think what you’re describing is gold. You can’t walk in and know that stuff unless you get a tip off from somebody who’s on the inside, right? It’s like redemption.
Andy Wright: 26:06
It’s who do you go to? Mom or dad? That’s right. Like co, uh, single parenting at the moment versus co parenting. Oh my god, that’s easy, yeah? They got no one to go to. It’s, oh yeah, okay,
Chris Hudson: 26:18
so single lines of reporting. Yeah, yes, yeah. Oh, that’s good, that’s good. It strikes me that in the last 100 years, that sort of switch from, Current state to future state has changed in that a lot of people in the past, if you think about politicians all the way through to company leaders, teachers and everyone else that we’ve experienced in our sphere of influence. But if we were growing up during that time, you’d expect a big visionary and a big speech and a keynote to come along and you’d be told what to do and then who’s with me and you put your hands up and it was Jerry Maguire all over again. Now you’re saying, okay, well actually we need to work through it. We all need to understand the problem, decide it’s the right problem, and then actually move towards the solution together and the outcome will be what you decide is rather the more. Either leader say it’s gonna be So is that what you’re seeing? To an extent.
Andy Wright: 27:03
I also always believe that I have to have an answer just in case.
Chris Hudson: 27:09
Okay, so you’re a starting point. So I won’t
Andy Wright: 27:09
walk into something going, oh, hey everyone, what could it be?
Chris Hudson: 27:13
Yeah.
Andy Wright: 27:14
It’s like I have to have an answer. I have to have my answer right. And I expect other people to bring answers as well.
Chris Hudson: 27:20
Mm-Hmm.
Andy Wright: 27:20
But it would be very blind to not have a point of view on what, where we should be going. And people look for that from leadership. And then you’ve got that. The dance, right? Of not giving people the answer, but trying to help them get there. But if they go off in a different path and uncover something else, then be open to it. You can’t just suddenly go, Oh, well then actually I don’t need to do anything. And here you go. And I think even like throughout your career, you notice that, right? Like you don’t want to walk into a meeting and not know what you’re supposed to be saying. I learned this the hard way very early on in my career. I got invited, I was mentored by the CEO, here’s one for the archives, Ask Jeeves. Oh yeah, yeah. Uh, so you’d, you’d know. I remember it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Remember the, remember the launch. Still around, still around, ask. com. The CEO took me to a marketing society dinner at like the Grosvenor Hotel. Everyone else in the room is a marketing director or CEO. And Rory Sutherland was speaking. And I was like, oh, you know, Rory Sutherland, amazing, fantastic. Adrian goes to me, he goes, so have you got a question for Rory? And I’m like, Oh, yeah, right. Okay. Yeah. And he goes, well, no, because there’ll be a chance to answer questions after he’s done his talk. I was like, uh, yeah, I didn’t think anything of it, right? Like, Why would anyone listen to me? And also I’m not about to put my hand up in a big room of people like that. And then we get there, dinner finishes, Roy gives his speech. They go, okay, let’s go to the floor for questions. Anyone got any questions? And Adrian grabs my hand, shoves it up in the air. And I’m like, And no, I didn’t have a question. I always thought he was just joking. And it was just like the mind of those embarrassing moments, when like you get that, the redness in your neck comes up and then just your whole face. And at that time, it took nothing for me to go red. Like for embarrassment. Takes a lot more these days. And what felt like probably two minutes, it was probably 10 or 20 seconds of me just being silent and then getting something out, but never again have I ever put myself in a situation where I don’t have an answer for something if somebody was to ask. And that’s in a meeting, like if you’re going to a meeting and someone else is doing a presentation, I have to know the presentation. I have to know how to give it if they suddenly just threw up beforehand and couldn’t come in the room or just anything like that. So I hate that idea now, and it was brutal, of being, I mean there are probably more brutal ways of doing it, of being underprepared and not having an opinion. I know It might mean that my opinion isn’t right, whatever it might be, but at least I’m not going to be stuck there going, Oh, I can’t add any value, which is different to. What I got taught then later in my career, or mid, I guess, career, which was you have to be the smartest person in the room, which is dangerous. Do not think that was good advice anymore. That’s assuming that you’re better than people. That’s assuming that you always have to have the answer. It’s not that I think you have to have the answer. I just think you have to have the answer. An opinion, I know where you’re at. And so I think, yeah, that’s quite dangerous to be honest. And I’ve spent years unlearning that understanding that, Hey, there’s a lot of smart people out there, much smarter than me, are going to contribute to a solution better than me as well.
Chris Hudson: 30:18
It’s about self worth and obviously knowing what your lane is and when to drift over and when to allow other people to shine as well, then you’re serving leadership and followership and big topics of conversation as well. That just feels like as, as a leader. Or as an emerging leader, you’ve got to know how much of yourself, smartest person in the room type, type ideology, like how much of that to give and how much to just keep, keep back. People are often biting their tongues and then other people just don’t talk at all. And obviously there’s a blend of people in terms of preferences for communication and collaboration out there in the workplace. And not everyone is equal in that sense. So in navigating that sense of our best to self represent without it being, well, no, not him again. How do you do that?
Andy Wright: 30:58
It’s just listen a lot more. I read a lot more stuff now that is about things I don’t know. Like I don’t read to back up my own point of view. I read to try and learn somebody else’s. And I think that’s the biggest thing you can do. I’ve read some great books recently, podcasts, whatever it might be, or just talk to people and understand that everyone’s lived experiences are so different to yours, especially. Me and you, right? Like we’re, we’re white bread. We’ve got so much to learn from other people. And I think the more we start to understand that and listen and listening is the biggest thing you can possibly do and get out of the way sometimes, then the better you’re going to do as a result as well. We’ve been running recently a program called allies and never not creative, which is working with people like us, white men to understand their privileges and their biases. And to think about how they can help people who don’t look like them at work. And that has been quite enlightening for a lot of people, but also it’s a safe space for them to kind of understand and get a few things wrong along the way. And to be able to go and not take themselves too seriously, right. To understand that there’s other opinions and other things out there and that anyone’s tough life. is valid, others have had a tough life too. And so it’s not to say that one is tougher or more valid than another. And I think starting to understand that, whether that’s by speaking to people, learning about their experiences, recognising things we take for granted are not what others get to take for granted. It’s probably the biggest way you can start to overcome that.
Chris Hudson: 32:32
Yeah. It’s interesting. I mean, the things that you learn from can be the hardest of lessons as well. I mean, that example of your hand being forced into, you may not have enjoyed it at the time, but you probably then, as you said, after that took away from it, that you were able to self prepare and obviously you didn’t want to be caught out again. And those sorts of situations can throw that in. So I think some people would believe anyway, that there’s an element of softness in the way in which things are managed these days, the treatment that you got there would have been. Kind of expected or applauded or at least support it back in the day, but now it feels like you’ve just got to be really careful about that from an anxiety point of view, from a mental health point of view. And obviously there’s neurodivergence and these conversations are much more frequent now. So it just feels harder, right? But maybe it’s not, if it’s just more transparent. I don’t know. Do you have a point of view on that?
Andy Wright: 33:17
Yeah, I think that the challenge with anything well being, mental health, like whatever it is related, there’s a jump to the assumption that you have to tread on eggshells around people and, oh, you can’t say that, oh, you can’t do this, like, oh, you have to let them. It’s not necessarily the case. You can still demand performance. Right? Like you can still go, Hey, we run a business and we’ve got to maintain productivity and we’ve got to make sure it’s like, you just might have to adjust some of your methods. But one of the biggest things would be, and you mentioned it, that was just be transparent and clear. Like the more you dance around something, the more it will end up hurting somebody else in the longterm than it will about having a very clear and transparent conversation. And. Those conversations are hard, but ultimately, for long term, other people will be better off. Didn’t you have an episode on radical candour or brutal honesty or something like that? But it’s really hard to reconcile that for yourself, right? Like, I know this person’s got a challenge with this, and I don’t wanna, like, I could trigger something there, but there is this balance, and ultimately, at work, your job is to just not make people any worse. If you had to take it down to a level, right, don’t make people worse in terms of how they think. But if ultimately they’re about the same and you can give them some feedback which means that they can move on, and in some cases that means moving them on, and I’ve had to do that, and it’s not nice, but you can do it in the most human way possible and it may not feel it at the time, but people will be better off for it.
Chris Hudson: 34:45
Yeah. And obviously there’s the school of thought around, you should be out of your comfort zone quite regularly, every week, every month or whatever, whatever you hold yourself to, but there’s that sort of thing as well. So we’re, we’re trying to encourage people at work to be progressing in one way or another by probably getting into, in and out of comfort zones a bit more fluidly, I don’t
Andy Wright: 35:02
know. Yeah, no, it’s true. And you’ve got to welcome that for yourself as well, which is really hard. I remember for the people we used to do, we introduced retros into every project, but not even every project, but like after every sprint, there was a proper retro. And I’m like, this is a great idea, blah, blah. It was a great idea until it got around to me. Like, well, what could you have done better in this project? You know? Well, actually, Andy, you could have done this, this, and I’m like, Oh, I wasn’t expecting that. I thought, I thought I’d contributed quite well. You know, you have to open yourself up to it as well, and it is, that’s good to do. It’s uncomfortable at the beginning, but you get used to it and you recognise there’s stuff that you can do to help the team, and there’s stuff that you can stop doing that will help the team as well.
Chris Hudson: 35:43
Some of the systems, I mean, we’re talking in the green room just before the show, some of the methodologies. So, you know, if you’re thinking about crazy aids and post its and sticky notes and creativity as it’s now made within 25 minutes before lunch in a boardroom somewhere, but how do you get the best out of people in those situations? Because not everyone’s geared up for that, right?
Andy Wright: 36:00
So true. I hired. A fantastic creative director from a very good studio in London. And almost as soon as he landed in the country, we put him into a workshop situation and it’s like, Oh, this is great. We’ve got a new creative director. Like crazy eights. Let’s just come up with some ideas. Nothing. Nothing on his paper at the end of this four or five minute session. I’m like, oh, what have we done? And you know what? It just works differently. It just, that’s not how his brain works. Like he needs to go for a walk or just sit and ruminate on something or be at his computer for a day, just like experimenting and throwing things around the screen, like whatever it might be, but put him into the pressure situation, which also, by the way, it was in front of a client and, you know, Nothing came out. And at the time I thought, well, that’s the way you do things. Like if we want a quick result, this is the process. Trust the process, follow it through. No, no. Now we just did a piece of work recently with a kind of team within Streamtime and I really wanted to kind of get. An understanding of what was going on for everyone to be able to help them get to a solution for how to work in the future. And one of the key things I was very wary of was how to engage them. And so we engaged in three different ways. We did an anonymous survey, we did a one on one and we did a group online workshop to get every possible way of. Allowing people to be heard during that process, it took longer as a result. I think everyone did feel heard and was able to contribute and talk and to be able to get their points across. And that comes from just better understanding that people like to communicate and contribute and listen and give feedback in different ways. And if we’d have only done it one way, which would have been everyone on Zoom, FigJam board. Get your stuff up and talk about it. Some people wouldn’t have got out what they really wanted to, and they’d have just been left there. And then what happens? They get disillusioned. They see things happening that they feel like they didn’t get heard. Resentment grows, stuff happens, weird shit happens in the team. People leave, you can see how quickly it spirals down if you haven’t really taken into account. How you can let everybody have their voice.
Chris Hudson: 38:10
Yeah, there’s definitely an underlying theme here of being heard. And if you feel like you’re not heard, then obviously it’s going to spark a thought. And then beyond a thought, there’s obviously an action. So I’m wondering like what the kind of trajectory of that looks like, because obviously we started with sort of one to one meetings and coffees, and then you had like your periodical catch up fortnightly with your boss or whatever. Some of that still goes on. Then obviously the social side of things is ramped up. And then engagement surveys have started creeping in where they’re starting to quantify how people are feeling. And it just feels like in terms of being heard, like, where’s it going? Like, how can we be more heard? And what do we need to listen more about essentially?
Andy Wright: 38:43
I think it’s the listening part, right? We’ve created every opportunity for people to be heard, but it’s irrelevant if you didn’t listen. And I think that’s what happens too often, right? Like, yes, people have got a voice more than ever before probably, but if the business doesn’t, or a leader or, you know, whatever it might be, it doesn’t act on. That voice, then people feel like they’re just shouting into a black hole and they’ll start to resent the fact that they were asked and nothing happened. There’s so much opportunity now because there are so many different ways of listening to people or hearing people. If anything, it highlights more when you haven’t taken that step. And also it’s got to be tied to things that make a difference. We are working on a strategy at the moment at Streamtime, which is sort of termed productive wellbeing. So yes, you kind of mentioned there’s a lot of wellbeing or staff feedback surveys and stuff, but they’re all like. extra things. They’re like bolt ons to what I was talking about before. They’re columns. They’re not rows, right? Like they just sit outside of something. And what we’re not doing with those things is tying them back to what we spend 95 percent of our day doing, which is working. And so what we’re trying to do at the moment is link the productivity side with the well being side. If we know how happy you are or what’s stressing you out at any point, can we connect that back to what you were doing? Can we connect that back to the work that you’re doing, or the people that you’re working with, or the type of work that you’ve been asked to do, or the client that you’re working on? We can start to make better suggestions on how to improve project output and outcomes, and also have that not be detrimental to people’s happiness. And so bringing those two things together, I think is actually the magic formula, because again, back to what we said, what’s the solution? Well, it’s better design of work, which essentially is what this is to be able to go, well, yes, we can make healthy profits for a business. But we can do that with happy people at the same time.
Chris Hudson: 40:34
I think that’s also to do with the art of facilitation to some extent. I mean, it can happen in that format, but it can also happen in a meeting context. And the art of managing a meeting is a little bit nebulous for a lot of people anyway, unless it’s, they’ll go off the five agenda points, but in terms of actually Running it and getting the best and making sure people are listening. Actually at the end of it, don’t get all throughout, you’re playing back some of the things to show that you’ve listened and you’re probably like weaving in a sense of what you’re going to do about it through that if you’re a good listener and you could lead us, all of that is sometimes left behind, right? And people just feel like they’ve said a lot, but they walk out and then they’re expecting some change. Nothing results, just inertia or the feeling of that. Anyway, is
Andy Wright: 41:11
it a good time to talk about your Bollywood career or, so obviously I’m English. Not, maybe not, obviously, actually, not everyone picks that up, but we moved to Australia in 2005, we went through India on the way we arrived at Leopold’s cafe in Mumbai, which I think is where everyone arrives at. And then they just come and pick the tourists out and go, Hey, do you want to be in a Bollywood movie? This was literally day one of our travels. I went, Oh yeah, yeah. And we were. And so, funnily enough, only, I think it was like earlier this year, we were sat around the dinner table, and Vanessa and I were talking about it to my wife, we were talking about it to the kids, and the kids go, oh, can we watch it, can we watch it? And I’m like, oh, you know what, I’ve never been able to find it. And then all of a sudden, I don’t know, I kind of remembered, it was called Yes Prime Minister, or Yes Minister, or something like that. Found it on YouTube. There’s a trailer for it. What’s funny is, Vanessa was actually, like, pulled up behind one of the main dancers, and there was, like, always, in the scenes we were shooting, there was always just three dancers. There was, like, the main person, the other person was getting paid, and then my wife, my wife or girlfriend at the time. And so she was always, like, front and centre, and I was just, like, white English guy in a bar. Just at the back dancing away. I get at least three seconds in the trailer and I think she got like half a second. That was my Bollywood movie career. So you can, it is possible to see it and, and find it on YouTube. No credits, no I, no IMDB profile.
Chris Hudson: 42:34
No, that all good, all good. Early days. Maybe could be something else around the corner, but Yeah. I mean, even your business, never not, it feels like there’s always this perpetual nature to the things that you’re doing. So have you got other things in the pipeline that, that you wanna mention? What else is never not.
Andy Wright: 42:48
Never Not Creative is the non profit that I set up to kind of affect mental health in the creative industry. Came from coming out of agencies and then not having to run an agency and having a bit more headspace. A software company has recurring revenue, which I think most agencies would bite your arm off for. Much more headspace, a chance to look at it, and you know, that’s where the research came from and all of that kind of stuff. And yeah, Never Not Creative is always kind of ready to do something. New, the newest thing currently is this never not finishing school, which is happening right now. And there’ll be more of that to come. We’ve got never not thinking differently, which is like groups of people going through like six or seven sessions to understand their neurodivergence and to then go, how do I, divulge that and communicate it away to people I work with or to jobs that I’m going for that mean they can see it as a superpower and not as something to avoid like the plague. And so that’s quite a big thing that we’ll hopefully launch by the end of the year. Never Not Creative is a non profit at the moment and is actually, we just heard back from the Charities Association to respond to our charity application. So the hope is, is that it’ll be a full blown charity as well by the end of the year, which will be good. And then it means that we can start to just do a little bit more, but it’s still very much on the kind of mental wellbeing related that we’d like to take the research further. The research we just did, it’s mainly in Australia and New Zealand, but we actually had an organisation called ICAD reach out halfway through and they’re the Irish creativity. Advertising and design Institute. And so we partnered with them and we were able to get a good sample of people from their organisation to do the survey. And so the next steps is to kind of write that up for them. And their director, I think is on the board of a few other organisations over in the U S and the UK. And so we’re hoping we can take that research and it’d be the standard for starting to look at the challenge of mental wellbeing in creative businesses. That’s pretty big. Yeah, that’s, that’s exciting. Yeah. I guess the challenge is always it’s really, it’s an evening job, evening and weekends. And so trying to find the time to keep, keep doing it is important, but yeah, can be a bit of a challenge
Chris Hudson: 44:54
on a personal note. I mean, how do you, do you manage that? Do you find what, you know, you’ve got any kind of secret recipes there?
Andy Wright: 45:00
I think I’m just realistic. I think there’s days when you just go, you know what I can’t, I think in my head, I wanted to get this research report out a couple of weeks ago, and I was just. I think you’ve just got to be kind to yourself. Like I’m very good at giving that advice to other people. So can you take it yourself? I think most of us know what is right to do for other people, but we aren’t very good at taking our own advice. And so I think every now and again, it’s a case of you’ve got to put yourself first and put life first. At Streamtime, that is the biggest ethos. Like it’s funny, you end up seeing more and more people taking time off. And you go, Oh my God, is everyone sick? Is everyone? And it’s like, no, they were able to say they were. That’s the biggest difference. Like instead of them having to push through or hide it or work when not well, they’ve been able to go, yeah, like I’m not feeling it today. I had it last week and I put it into Slack and I said, look, I’d had some news about someone I’d worked with dying. I was really tired from this single parenting lock at the moment and I just couldn’t do it. And so I put it into Slack and I said, Hey, I just can’t do it today. And I think it’s important to kind of, to share that with people and to be realistic. And I think, you know, that is the kind of, you know, it doesn’t need any awards or anything, but it’s the kind of role modelling that we’re better off doing. And that means other people can do it as well. And if you can say it as well, for a reason, like I. There was that kind of movement, isn’t there, of like, leaders leaving loudly? I get the premise of it, and it’s a good idea, but often it’s about leaders leaving loudly because they’ve got to go pick up their kids. And so if you haven’t got kids, you can’t do it, right? And it’s this kind of, oh, I’ll get to that stage one day where I’m allowed to leave a bit early. Their reason is kids. Your reason might be a class. It might be meeting a friend who’s visiting the city for, you know, Coffee or drinks or whatever it might be, but that’s just as important, right? Like we don’t get to judge what’s important for people, which means that they get a little bit back in their life. And so I think that needs to be validated more. You don’t get to say what’s important for others and you’ll start to see it repaid as well. And I think that’s what it is. It’s like, is there’s this fair sense of how much you’re giving to work. We will always say, no matter what happens, you drop work for life, like a rock straight away. Anything happens. That means you leave a customer hanging. Fine. It’s only business. They’ll be all right. Your health, your family, your friends, whatever it might be is, is more important than that.
Chris Hudson: 47:16
Yeah. Cause I think with work, obviously there’s a feeling of duty, you know, particularly if you’ve got a client, that’s your duty. That’s like, you know, to walk away from that would be a big deal for somebody is what I’m saying. Yeah.
Andy Wright: 47:26
There’s a really good HBR article on that, which is around the ideal worker. And it talks about the ideal worker being someone as like, you’ve given your entire self worth and life to work. And so that’s what you look like as the ideal worker. And if you’re working for those businesses, there’s different ways of handling it. Like you can just kind of go along with it. And basically what will happen is, You resent your workplace and your job, but also you lose your identity. If you’re constantly doing that and you’re putting off life for work, what happens when you don’t have that job? What happens when you’re not doing that work anymore? You haven’t got your other life to kind of fall back on. So you lose your sense of identity. And then there’s people that will kind of go along with it. That sort of be passive in it, but they’ll like hide the stuff that they do. So if they went out. One evening, or at a really good weekend, they probably won’t tell people at work just because somebody else was working really hard, or they don’t want it to look like they’ve got so much time to have a life. And then there’s the people who will just go, no, fuck you, I’m not doing that, and they will, and will rebel, quite rightly. I saw that article and I was just like, oh, that’s a really interesting concept, because that’s kind of what so many businesses expect. It’s like, oh, we’re paying you, it’s a privilege for you to have a job. It’s like, Nah, sorry, it’s actually a privilege for me to spend so much of my life doing stuff for you.
Chris Hudson: 48:41
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think there’s that expectation obviously that some business leaders would obviously expect all people or employees to basically turn up ready to go and equal in a fairly in the meeting room or in the team, like everyone’s the same, they come back from the weekend refreshed and ready to go. But actually there are many other differences and you know, it’s probably where the listening comes into. Before we go, I just want to ask you one final question, which is just about, I mean, you mentioned anxiety earlier in your career, but for anyone out there and obviously a lot of the work that you’re doing is in the mental. Health space in terms of intrapreneurs and like what people we’re working within organisations can probably have as maybe signals or things to look out for that would be cause to, to have a conversation or to rethink the current work situation or anything like that. Is there anything that springs to mind as being something to watch out for?
Andy Wright: 49:24
Yeah, definitely. There’s a few things you can do. You can look out for changes in behaviour. So if someone’s slightly more erratic than usual, or if you find that they’re Delivering on deadlines like they used to, or their communication is kind of curter or shorter or stuff like that. If they’re withdrawing, they used to do four days in the office. Now they’re only doing two. They used to be at drinks every Thursday. Now they don’t ever come at all. Those are the types of things where you, you start to see a difference and then you can, the best thing to do is, is, is literally is to ask the question is like, Hey, is there something going on for you? At the moment. And you know what? You might not get the answer straight away. You might have to ask four or five times on four or five different occasions. Because if you’re, if you’re like me, I often don’t enjoy talking about how I’m feeling. But if you catch me at the right time, then yeah. I’ll open up and that’s why like sometimes you just got to find the right time. So don’t ambush people, but also like let them know that, Hey, would you like to go for a coffee in a couple of days? So that they can prepare for a conversation if they wanted to. You can prepare for the conversation as well. Got to be okay in yourself to be able to have that conversation too. So yeah, those are the things to kind of look out for. And then. Just don’t stop because you might be worried that you’re coming across as annoying or you’re just constantly badgering them. But the alternative isn’t worth thinking about. If it gets so bad that then they think about doing harm to themselves, well then you don’t ever want to be in that position. And it’s perfectly okay to ask someone that just to kind of rule, you know, to rule it out or to bring it up. You know, a lot of this is taught in mental health first aid. I can’t recommend it. It’s definitely worth doing and it helps you notice some of those signs and how to have some of those, those conversations.
Chris Hudson: 51:09
Brilliant. All right. Well, thanks so much, Andy. I’ve really enjoyed the chat today. I mean, it’s just been very open and a warm conversation. You’ve been incredibly giving with a lot of your advice and, you know, Through tales of experience as well. So thanks so much about coming on shining light on mental health and other things that you’re doing in the creative world. And as always, it’s just really cool to hear about the things that you’re doing out there because you’re doing some amazing work. So thanks so much.
Andy Wright: 51:31
That was great. Thanks very much for having me. It’s been brilliant.
Chris Hudson: 51:33
Brilliant. Thank you.
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